With the TWW around the corner, we’re once again headed back to the divisive but unavoidable 2H vs DW debate, which will almost certainly leave half the DK population disappointed.
In DF 2H showed strong numbers but that could change in TWW with some of the new talents seemingly favoring DW. Also DW has more/all build options and more fluid gameplay due to increased KM/RI/resource generation.
I’m not a theorycrafter but one contributing factor seems to be MotFW’s current implementation. Its bonus does not properly resolve the disparity created by the variance in Runeforges and auto-attack hits, which are the main factors that limit build choices.
We need an update to MotFW so it does not create subspecs, but instead normalizes both weapon types in the simplest way possible such as:
get rid of the current MotFW bonuses
allow the DK to add another Runeforge, while using a 2H
an additional runeforge or just a buff with the same effect (Torghast powers did this so we know it’s doable)
add more melee hit events for 2H to equalize AAs with DW
math out an attack speed bonus for 2H or give it something like Crystalline Swords / old Arms Warrior mastery to generate extra melee hits
Having access to an equal number of runeforge buffs and auto-attacks (which facilitate KM procs and RI stacks) would solve most of the above issues and reduce the work that goes into tuning talents/abilities per weapon type.
Bonus Obliterate damage could always be directly baked into the Obliteration talent, if necessary, for those who can’t see anything on their screen except Big Oblitz Critzz.
It’s pretty obvious at this point that both sides of this have strong supporters and removing one weapon option, for better or worse, would be a bad idea. But this is something that should be resolved for the general health of Frost, in order to allow the spec to move forward and not be perpetually entrenched in decade old problems.
I feel like an unspoken piece to this conversation is Unholy, and the overall gameplay identity of 2h DK DPS. People want to have an Arthas archetype, be that either 2h Frost or a strike oriented Unholy build.
Frost is the warzone, meanwhile Unholy is off in the corner doing pseudo-caster things.
IMO the entire class needs a massive come to jesus, in order to figure out what gameplay identies it holds onto moving forwards, because it is so beyond fractured between so many playstyles that have massive shifts on how they should approach combat. I won’t say DK is in the most dire need of a ground up rework when Shaman exists, but we’re absolutely in need of one, and not many classes are just breaking down under the current system more than DK. I want to see the spec go back to thematic basics, and rebuilt from there. I literally don’t even care what directions the class takes, provided it focuses up, picks core thematic and gameplay beats, and commits to them.
Like as it stands, the lack of more or less gurenteed existence of a juggernaut strike build, is actually a massive problem for DK DPS’s gameplay identity. Frost being half juggernaut, half combo caster, is leaving both playstlyes underserved. Unholy hasn’t had a viable strike build since BFA, IIRC, so it’s absolutely part of the problem in my opinion.
The extreme division on DK’s playstyle started in WoD with Breath of Sindragosa, and carried forward with the Legion reworks, that hardcoded it into the Frost spec, and reworking Unholy away from strikes and Plague management, and into excessive necromancy.
Called it years ago this would be the reality unless they completely overhauled the spec.
MotFW is 2h second runeforge so it already does have 2 runeforges. You just cant pick this runeforge.
What they should have done is just make it so you could transmog your 2 weapons into a 2h weapon. Solves everything.
Its called unholy. Arthas did a whole lot of raising the undead, spreading plagues, and having defiles around.
Because the players wanted to make it a warzone again.
This was already done. Cata through BFA had what the specs were going to do and then SL came along and people admittedly harassed someone on twitter until 2h was added back and that threw not just a wrench but the whole toolbox into system. Now if there is any talent that is added that supports the intended gameplay of the spec which is a DW berserker of the north, a few people pitch a fit. Oh that favors this weapon more. Thats right, because its for the intended weapon set for the spec. Its like if Fury had an option to just use a singular 2h weapon, its not the intended way to play that spec. This is never going to be a utopia and 2h Frost should be behind the intended way to play the spec.
What they need to do to balance it would be more akin to a Korean mmo (forget the name). 2h and dw were exactly the same damage. It was the slot being filled that was important. A two handed or two one handers did the same damage, because they had the same level. Talents weren’t designed to work better with one type of weapons.
It should just be a cosmetic option like staffs vs one-hand/offhand. Im pretty sure most players just prefer one set of visuals over the another. Needing to find and level 3 weapons just to play your spec optimally feels terrible.
Many mmo’s have specific weapon sets and that is it, or the weapons do completely different things. Like Greatsword vs Sword / Sword for the necromancer. The weapons provide different abilities.
WoW isnt designed like that and its more akin to specs want to use specific weapons, mainly melee. Casters dont matter because they dont actually use their weapons and are more like stat sticks.
There was also an entire system put in place for how you want your character to look. They could have left Frost DW and just worked on the transmog system as they should have. Its not like it couldnt be done, Rift already does this and no one plays it.
I agree with you. DKs definitely needed a larger revamp than what we’ve seen so far. Despite receiving some solid changes for TWW, the devs have failed to address a lot of pain points that DKs have been complaining about for years (wounds, DnD cleave, etc.).
Even goals that they themselves set at the beginning of alpha have not been fully met (disease play for Unholy). In the absence of a far reaching rework though, I think we need to lobby for realistic changes (such as what I’ve outlined for MotFW) that are as simple as possible and set up the specs for future improvements.
This is already done to some degree if you look at damage calculations and proc rates for some talents. A lot of stuff is already normalized. The missing piece is the lack of parity for core mechanics such as runeforges and stacking RI.
I agree and I could live with a mog route too, but until Blizz indicates that as an option I figured I’d go for more concrete suggestions. I don’t think we’re that far off from a non-cosmetic solution either, so it would come down to which is less work for them.
I believe the issue with this is that, with the current tech, your offhand never swings. I’m not sure if the reverse has any animation issues, though personally I prefer mogging 2H → DW just so we don’t have to farm more weapons.
Changing Frost from a DW spec since Wrath to 2h brings about a lot of gameplay nerfs in favor of what?
Less autos so less KM procs.
Less things like Shattered Blade would feel infinitely worse.
No 2 runeforges.
Wouldnt have MotFW anymore either because the 2 runeforges wouldnt be there to try to compensate.
DW crit mechanics are gone so anything that is based off of ability crits happens less often.
I rather farm an extra weapon and have the stuff that we have now than to lose all of that and just only have to get 1 weapon.
Truthfully Ive always been fully for DW obliteration being the best way forward for frost, not so much the actual obliteration build we have but more of a Plate wearing Berserker like Warhammers Khorne Berserkers but yknow, ice.
Better synergy between Runic Power and Runes themselves. Unholy alone has too much nonsense to juggle just to get damage going and a rotation off the ground. Over complexity isn’t fun, just as oversimplicity can be boring.
Too many skills on GCD, when a rotation requires like 4 CDs just to get going and has a quicker fall off than anything Drake puts out, then there’s a problem here.
Remove the requirement for DnD cleave, or make DnD an on player Aura with less commitment required to use. Especially for Unholy.
Add some more unique synergy with Death magic with Frost. This is more a flavor thing than a functional ask. Frost Scythe should be baseline, should be the active go to melee cleave skill for Frost anyway.
POF and RW should be rolled into one skill on a 1.30 DC power / flavor skill for Frost called something class flavor specific, functions like Avenging Wrath for Frost DKs. Make the talent for it something fun in a deeper tree where Obliterates done boost the damage done in this state by some % per Oblit with a stack cap of 5 or something.
I dunno, just feels like a lot of easy win opportunity changes for the class before the expansion drops. Stuff like this wouldn’t need a lot of major spec revamps. Just sensible cool changes.
I agree with OP- deciding to make 2H Frost viable did irreparable damage to the spec. Unholy and Blood were already 2H specs, why couldn’t they just leave Frost dual wield?
Now we have a spec that has its development handicapped because any change has to work with both playstyles and they really don’t play nice together. Its so much fun being the only spec in the game that needs three drops and three fully upgraded weapons to be optimal.
It’s because a bunch of people who no longer play this game went onto Twitter and harassed Holinka until it was put back into the game. This isn’t some conspiracy theory, they admitted to it.
People were warned back in BFA that this would be the outcome.
I think you may have missed my point. I don’t believe that 2H should ever have been removed and it being added back is a great change. Anecdotally, I’d say that wielding a 2H is more closely aligned to most people’s idea of a DK, and being able to share weapons with the other specs is also pretty nice.
My point was that the devs made a mistake in the way they brought back 2H, and more specifically their implementation of MotFW. They should never have strived to create 2 different subspecs with that passive.
The main differences between 2H and DW right now is number of rune forges and auto attacks (which translates into RI and KM procs). If MotFW was designed to just solve these differences, instead of only giving 2H bonsues to Obliterate damage and KM, it would allow players to pick their builds regardless of weapon type. This would be immensely freeing when designing new things for Frost.
But I doubt we’ll see any interesting design changes at this point for any of the specs. We’ll have to do it all over again for 11.1.
This literally doesnt matter since players didnt create the DK, Blizzard did. The players cant even come to grips that Arthas is the epitome of an Unholy DK yet time and time again they say hes Frost because hes in Northrend. Them removing 2h from Frost was probably one of the best things they did going into Legion because the amount of people that played Frost DK went up drastically.
If these forums were to be believed then everyone stopped playing Frost because it went DW only (crazy how a DW spec focused on being DW) and that Frost didnt get Frostmourne. Thats not the reality though and the people playing Frost has went down ever since 2h became implemented again.
This is the purpose of MotFW right now, it gives a 2nd runeforge that people wanted through increased Obliterate damage, and it addresses 2h having an innate lack of KM procs by making any auto crit proc KM instead of how DW works where you have an increasing chance per crit to get a KM proc.
This was never going to work, people were told this was never going to work. So why should Blizzard care when people didnt care about the consequences of adding 2h back?
There aren’t any other specs in the game that require two different weapon sets for different builds within the same spec, are there (unless maybe you’re talking PvE vs. PvP secondary stats)? It’s just a uniquely inconvenient thing for Frost? I’d love for it to just be cosmetic, whether we’re technically dual wielding or 2-handing. I can’t imagine the balancing hell that is DW vs. 2H with the current talent trees plus hero talents – probably tacks on a decent amount of extra time when reworking things.
arthas was both frost and unholy. yea he threw plagues around like the best unholys, but he also had a TON of frost attacks, hell he even uses remorseless winter DURING HIS BIG RAID FIGHT IN ICC!
Oh yeah… A ton of Frost spells. Creating a few walls, remorseless winter and sending frozen orbs at people. How can people claim to play this game yet get things wrong on such a huge magnitude?
He barely did anything frostlike to be seen as a Frost DK. 90% of what Arthas did was unholy based.