A lot of people are going crazy over Saurfang in the Lost Honor cinematic for several reasons. What I find more aggravating in this video is not that Saurfang hoped Anduin would kill Sylvanas, or that he gave up, possibly Alliance spy, what have you. It is that Anduin "can't" beat Sylvanas.
At this point in the narrative, it makes sense that Saurfang hoped Anduin would finish Sylvanas, because he certainly can't. Sylvanas is a god compared to every faction leader we have. Thrall in his prime was probably the only person more powerful than her on our side. Now he isn't probably even close. This is the same Sylvanas that beat Malfurion like a ragdoll in A Good War. Even if that is not cannon, she stood up to him more so than anyone else. That same Malfurion who beat Saurfang easily in melee combat, MELEE COMBAT! She also made a hole in Malfurion's Wisp Wall and recovered from it, the same wisps that killed Archimonde. She also took a hit from Genn Graymane, rubbed it off, and then one shotted him.
As for Anduin "can't" beat Sylvanas? Really? Come on! The Alliance have so many walking weapons of mass destruction. Anduin himself, Jaina, possibly Turalyon though we fight him in a warfront so he doesn't seem as powerful. The list still goes on with Alleria, Tyrande(?), Malfurion, Velen. I might have missed someone. OH and let's not forget a working, operating, GIANT SPACESHIP! That was the key instrument in defeating the Burning Legion! Though the Legion became a sad joke long before the Legion expansion.
What do we have? Sylvanas and her blight, oh wait that blight gets countered by a simple gas mask! I guess Sylvanas is powered up enough to become a super mega god. Who can take on the entire Alliance because of her cosmic level powers and her MiLtArY GeNiUs. Seriously Blizzard makes both the Alliance and the Horde look bad for her, just for her. Both sides are presented as dumb and powerless against her. It is just pure rage inducing stupid for everyone but Sylvanas' cult followers.
So again after all of that, all of that, how can Anduin not defeat Sylvanas? Even in patch 8.1 the Alliance is just weeks away from victory without even using their full might against the Horde. But ho wait, no worries, Sylvanas has an ace up her sleeve because of course, she is one above all for … reasons!
That's a common trend I notice, Alliance victories are never treated like real victories but always actually pyrrhic victories.
It's the personal trade-off of the faction. The Horde gain victories but lose complete and total sympathy and the moral highground, whereas the Alliance gain victory but instead of those victories being recognized or acknowledged as such, the losses and death it took to attain such victory is extrapolated on more, making it not sound much like a victory at all.
And Blizzard just has this irritating habit of stressing how much of a military genius Sylvanas is, no matter how much of a blunder Teldrassil was, or Lordaeron. They are written off as being part of her master plan to begin with.
It's the personal trade-off of the faction. The Horde gain victories but lose complete and total sympathy and the moral highground, whereas the Alliance gain victory but instead of those victories being recognized or acknowledged as such, the losses and death it took to attain such victory is extrapolated on more, making it not sound much like a victory at all.
And Blizzard just has this irritating habit of stressing how much of a military genius Sylvanas is, no matter how much of a blunder Teldrassil was, or Lordaeron. They are written off as being part of her master plan to begin with.
11/03/2018 06:53 AMPosted by CryptkeepsThat's a common trend I notice, Alliance victories are never treated like real victories but always actually pyrrhic victories.
It's the personal trade-off of the faction. The Horde gain victories but lose complete and total sympathy and the moral highground, whereas the Alliance gain victory but instead of those victories being recognized or acknowledged as such, the losses and death it took to attain such victory is extrapolated on more, making it not sound much like a victory at all.
Which is ironic because it should be … the other way around. Like it was in WC3 with Arthas purging an entire city for victory. The Horde and Alliance have just traded narratives so hard it is not even funny. Now we have the Arthas in the form of Sylvanas. HELL It is why both people joined their factions! The Honorable Horde vs the Pragmatic Alliance. This is just also so mind jarring!
11/03/2018 06:55 AMPosted by MannecWhich is ironic because it should be … the other way around. Like it was in WC3 with Arthas purging an entire city for victory. The Horde and Alliance have just traded narratives so hard it is not even funny. Now we have the Arthas in the form of Sylvanas. HELL It is why both people joined their factions! The Honorable Horde vs the Pragmatic Alliance. This is just also so mind jarring!
Well, in fairness, both Anduin and Sylvanas are a reflection of Arthas. Anduin is the anti-Arthas, what Arthas could have been had he not been consumed by vengeance whereas Sylvanas is Arthas 2.0, fully embracing the kind of monster he became and coming full circle from what Varimathras told her when she betrayed the humans in Lordaeron.
I don't think it makes sense for the Alliance to commit the acts the Horde have committed, that has never truly been fitting for the faction theme. Maybe for certain individual races, who should definitely have a more pragmatic and ruthless side, but not for the faction as a whole that have always been the traditional good guys.
I do however agree that a noble Horde vs. amoral Horde would have been more interesting if Vol'jin were still Warchief and not Sylvanas dragging the rest of the faction into her evil schemes.
This just in: Player finally realizes that Horde and Alliance are intended to be evenly matched, to the point where it's not possible for one to wipe out the other without destroying itself as well.
Yes, the Alliance could likely defeat the Horde should it commit to a war of annihilation against them (that is true, sorry fellow Hordies ... it would be bloody and long, but I don't doubt the Alliance would win should they commit to such a goal). However, this is not the "I can't" Anduin is referring to.
Anduin no longer believes he can beat Sylvanas without destroying the Horde. Get with it, he does not seek the Horde's destruction ... his objective with this war was to remove Sylvanas from power so he wouldn't have to. He however no longer believes he is capable of achieving that objective alone as of "Lost Honor".
He's in over his head with Sylvanas and he finally recognizes this.
Anduin no longer believes he can beat Sylvanas without destroying the Horde. Get with it, he does not seek the Horde's destruction ... his objective with this war was to remove Sylvanas from power so he wouldn't have to. He however no longer believes he is capable of achieving that objective alone as of "Lost Honor".
He's in over his head with Sylvanas and he finally recognizes this.
11/03/2018 07:03 AMPosted by VesperoThis just in: Player finally realizes that Horde and Alliance are intended to be evenly matched, to the point where it's not possible for one to wipe out the other without destroying itself as well.
If it was written well and made sense, but this is just … just … I don't know what to make heads or tails of it. … Alliance can't win because of a single person? Even though they have all these super weapons. It just doesn't … just doesn't …(sigh) "This just in, player finally realizes Blizzard is out of ideas." There that makes more sense.
or maybe you are just taking anduin's word too literal and he was only saying what he had to say to make a new ally and instead of wasting resources and lives of the alliance fighting the horde he could make them kill each other?
he then says "not alone" and proceeds to open his cell.
He is not wrong, he can't do it alone, that's why he has his allies.
i don't believe for a second that alliance characters can't beat sylvanas. there are many ways to do it, diplomacy is one of them.
he then says "not alone" and proceeds to open his cell.
He is not wrong, he can't do it alone, that's why he has his allies.
i don't believe for a second that alliance characters can't beat sylvanas. there are many ways to do it, diplomacy is one of them.
11/03/2018 07:06 AMPosted by DroitéYes, the Alliance could likely defeat the Horde should it commit to a war of annihilation against them (that is true, sorry fellow Hordies ... it would be bloody and long, but I don't doubt the Alliance would win should they commit to such a goal). However, this is not the "I can't" Anduin is referring to.
Anduin no longer believes he can beat Sylvanas without destroying the Horde. Get with it, he does not seek the Horde's destruction ... his objective with this war was to remove Sylvanas from power so he wouldn't have to. He however no longer believes he is capable of achieving that objective alone as of "Lost Honor".
He's in over his head with Sylvanas and he finally recognizes this.
Hmmm okay now we are getting somewhere, just the problem I still have is this, okay so Anduin wants to take out just Sylvanas? Hey Alleria remember that void portal thing where you can zap an entire army into one spot? Yeah do that in her throne room. Blizzard has done made themselves a corner.
I think Anduin means he can't beat her in that she will just send wall after wall of Horde to protect herself and then raise them into her servitude and bolster her ranks. The more he fights her in the War, the more powerful she and her armies of undead become. Not to mention she is also raising his own fallen forces. So while he continues to lose more people, Sylvannas' armies are just growing. Eventually the Alliance will be exhausted and the Horde would become 90% forsaken. Anduin is just essentially sending his troops in to die so that she can conscript them into her service.
Boom down goes Alliance. She raises them to fight for her. Then she turns against the remaining Horde. Boom down goes the Horde. It's getting harder and harder for him to reach her without having to kill a bunch of Horde. They are both sending their forces to die, the only difference is that Sylavnnas is directly profiting from the death.
Boom down goes Alliance. She raises them to fight for her. Then she turns against the remaining Horde. Boom down goes the Horde. It's getting harder and harder for him to reach her without having to kill a bunch of Horde. They are both sending their forces to die, the only difference is that Sylavnnas is directly profiting from the death.
11/03/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Mannec11/03/2018 07:06 AMPosted by DroitéYes, the Alliance could likely defeat the Horde should it commit to a war of annihilation against them (that is true, sorry fellow Hordies ... it would be bloody and long, but I don't doubt the Alliance would win should they commit to such a goal). However, this is not the "I can't" Anduin is referring to.
Anduin no longer believes he can beat Sylvanas without destroying the Horde. Get with it, he does not seek the Horde's destruction ... his objective with this war was to remove Sylvanas from power so he wouldn't have to. He however no longer believes he is capable of achieving that objective alone as of "Lost Honor".
He's in over his head with Sylvanas and he finally recognizes this.
Hmmm okay now we are getting somewhere, just the problem I still have is this, okay so Anduin wants to take out just Sylvanas? Hey Alleria remember that void portal thing where you can zap an entire army into one spot? Yeah do that in her throne room. Blizzard has done made themselves a corner.
That's fair, but Sylvanas has been fairly mobile ... and I'm guessing she is prepared for such a contingency in some way. She especially knows that Alleria is one of the hard-liners on the Alliance that really, REALLY wants her dead. I would be honestly shocked if "void teleportation" isn't at least the one thing she's planned to combat; if only because of that personal connection and hostility.
11/03/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Etheldaldor maybe you are just taking anduin's word too literal and he was only saying what he had to say to make a new ally and instead of wasting resources and lives of the alliance fighting the horde he could make them kill each other?
When has Anduin been anything other than someone who wears his emotions on his sleeves?
11/03/2018 07:20 AMPosted by ArlifrexWhen has Anduin been anything other than someone who wears his emotions on his sleeves?
My point is, he is saying the correct words, there is a reason why he is talking and he didn't execute him.
he intents to use him as an ally and as a weapon against the horde, regardless if he has good or bad intentions.
"i can't do it alone, so help me" diplomacy at it's finest.
the more help he can get to fight sylvanas the better.
11/03/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Droité11/03/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Mannec...
Hmmm okay now we are getting somewhere, just the problem I still have is this, okay so Anduin wants to take out just Sylvanas? Hey Alleria remember that void portal thing where you can zap an entire army into one spot? Yeah do that in her throne room. Blizzard has done made themselves a corner.
That's fair, but Sylvanas has been fairly mobile ... and I'm guessing she is prepared for such a contingency in some way. She especially knows that Alleria is one of the hard-liners on the Alliance that really, REALLY wants her dead. I would be honestly shocked if "void teleportation" isn't at least the one thing she's planned to combat; if only because of that personal connection and hostility.
Hmmm to add to your point I think the only contingency would be as the void portal opens, gas the room with blight. She may have ran out of her large blight stockpile, but she should have some on her personal belongings. That and Blight seems super effective against the Alliance somehow. Or backfire the plan, jump into the portal, and finish off any leader on the other side. I don't think anyone can stand up to her toe to toe, one versus one, at this point. That second option is very risky though.
11/03/2018 07:25 AMPosted by Etheldald11/03/2018 07:20 AMPosted by ArlifrexWhen has Anduin been anything other than someone who wears his emotions on his sleeves?
My point is, he is saying the correct words, there is a reason why he is talking and he didn't execute him.
he intents to use him as an ally and as a weapon against the horde, regardless if he has good or bad intentions.
"i can't do it alone, so help me" diplomacy at it's finest.
the more help he can get to fight sylvanas the better.
Fair and valid points, however between him, Alleria, and the space ship, I am not convinced he doesn't have the means to end the war with finishing Sylvanas off alone, or with little casualties as possibe, quickly and without the Horde's help. Hmmm perhaps to add to your point, Sylvanas still has devoted followers, if Anduin committed to such an act that would just continue the cycle of hatred? If he had used those weapons, he would instigate an era of fear and intimidation coming from the Alliance, and that he doesn't want? AH! Now we are getting somewhere! Wait hmmm However hrmmm, Sylvanas pretty much cut all ties from her followers, or should have, when she raised them as skeletons in Battle for Lordaeron. Have not even touched on the torching of Teldrassil. If she hadn't broken the Horde's trust then, she most certainly have with Derek Proudmoore being the straw that broke the camel's back.
11/03/2018 07:32 AMPosted by MannecFair and valid points, however between him, Alleria, and the space ship, I am not convinced he doesn't have the means to end the war with finishing Sylvanas off alone
oh,absolutely i have no doubts that if the alliance stop caring about civilians casualties this war would have been over a long time ago, probably with lordaeron imploding with the entire horde army.
11/03/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Mannecif Anduin committed to such an act that would just continue the cycle of hatred?
well, yes, because the premise of this war is that the alliance wants to exterminate the entire horde,but that isn't the case.
what anduin said not necessarily means that he literally CAN'T stop her.
not alone at least.
is just that.. sylvanas is using the horde as meat shields.
11/03/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Etheldald11/03/2018 07:32 AMPosted by MannecFair and valid points, however between him, Alleria, and the space ship, I am not convinced he doesn't have the means to end the war with finishing Sylvanas off alone
oh,absolutely i have no doubts that if the alliance stop caring about civilians casualties this war would have been over a long time ago, probably with lordaeron imploding with the entire horde army.11/03/2018 07:32 AMPosted by Mannecif Anduin committed to such an act that would just continue the cycle of hatred?
well, yes, because the premise of this war is that the alliance wants to exterminate the entire horde,but that isn't the case.
what anduin said not necessarily means that he literally CAN'T stop her.
not alone at least.
is just that.. sylvanas is using the horde as meat shields.
True but again if that's the case, I think at this point Sylvanas has pissed off enough of the Horde for Anduin to finish the job. Is he perhaps waiting for a legitmate leader this time to take over without interfering. Sort of to make it Horde matters only?
Hes unwilling to fight the war as it needs to be fought.
War is not the place for idealism its a dark and dirty business. The only good war is a quick one something Saurfang and Anduin both fail to understand. Both of them are doing nothing but prolonging the war with half measures and every day it drags on hundreds more die.
War is not the place for idealism its a dark and dirty business. The only good war is a quick one something Saurfang and Anduin both fail to understand. Both of them are doing nothing but prolonging the war with half measures and every day it drags on hundreds more die.
Anduin said to Saurfang what he thought he needed to say to get him outside the door. You don't have to take his "I can't" as a hard statement if you don't want to.
11/03/2018 07:07 AMPosted by Mannec11/03/2018 07:03 AMPosted by VesperoThis just in: Player finally realizes that Horde and Alliance are intended to be evenly matched, to the point where it's not possible for one to wipe out the other without destroying itself as well.
If it was written well and made sense, but this is just … just … I don't know what to make heads or tails of it. … Alliance can't win because of a single person? Even though they have all these super weapons. It just doesn't … just doesn't …(sigh) "This just in, player finally realizes Blizzard is out of ideas." There that makes more sense.
Why do you think it’s a single person? Sylvanas is the warcheif to beat her is to defeat the horde. Listen in our history, a lot of great conquers won because of tactics and strategy. This is where Sylvanas excels and she commands the horde. That have inquired races like undead. You can do a lot with them bury them in the battle field for ambush, march underwater but they never show this or the fact that most horde races are stronger then alliance...
But with all that in mind I can see where Anduin is coming from. To defeat Sylvanas you have to beat the horde.
FYI this is before the siege of Zandalar.