Anduin being meant to show non-toxic masculinity is hollow

If everyone around him behaved consistently as their actual character would, Anduin would not be a High king and would actually be just one voice among many

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He’s certainly a wide eyed nice boy who just wants to help. Which in itself isn’t a bad character trait. That’s essentially what Zenkan is and I like him because it’s refreshing to get a PoV from someone who isn’t basically a super hero.

But that just doesn’t work well for Supreme Commander of the Alliance. He comes off as kind of a naive and pampered trust fund pup who’s got a lot to learn about the world. And again, if he were a Alliance leader I think this could work well. An idealistic young man tempering the more cynical and world weary world views of say Greymane could be interesting.

But as the Alliance leader it comes off as weird. Mainly because the story keeps bending over backwards to prove him right. He didn’t need to send aid to the Kaldorei in Darkshore, they sorted that out themselves. He was also right to try to make peace with the Horde as the only leader still baying for blood, Talanji, agrees to at least shelve the blood feud for the time being by the end of SR.

So we’ve a soft, sweet boy who’s so pure he literally gets a power boost from weeping at the horrors of war who is wiser than millennia old moon popes and star imams and is never wrong about anything.

Just makes for a dull character. I only really liked him in SR. He puts on a bad disguise and sneaks out for booze. Still being Anduin he has one beer and only flirts with the idea of flirting with a cute soldier. But it was at least a dumb thing a teenager would do. Everywhere else he might as well be a literal angel.

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He’s also faced the horrors of war firsthand and remains utterly unchanged. I can’t decide if he comes off as hopelessly naïve or a sociopath.

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How should he change? Like, literally what should be different.

Someone being self aware is the first step. Zerde having sympathy for dejected Illidan and still seeing illidan’s behavior towards Tyrande as toxic, still has a valid opinion on toxic masculinity.

It’s the people who think toxic masculinity doesn’t exist, are the problem.

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I do not have anything to add so far about Anduin that was not mentioned in the “alliance, who are you” thread. IMO it’s a bit early to fully judge the story of Shadowlands (although it’s state currently is rather unpleasant for me to witness).

Overall, after looking at the story (not in all possible details though) from the Legion till now (9.1 soon™), I have a newfound appreciasion for what I’ve read from Stephen King:

Kill your darlings, kill your darlings, even when it breaks your egocentric little scribbler’s heart, kill your darlings.

© On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft


gl hf

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I sometimes wish they’d retconned the pining for Tyrande in the same stroke of pen that retconned Rhonin teaching Illidan magic

“Killing your darlings” has always been a cruel sentiment. How 'bout nah? :confused: I’m glad mister King can pump out ten novels a year by doing this, but I hate it.

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Dev bias (or when the story events can be explained consistently by it) is a horrible thing.

If I ever manage to write anything other than a pay check in my life, I think I shall not allow myself to like anyone other than villains.


gl hf

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Mhm, you go ahead and take a break from all that tedious check signing, and write a book series where the bad guy always wins. See how well you do.

Btw, having favorite villains still makes them your darlings. You’re still gonna have to kill them, according to your rule. Or was that your point? You weren’t very clear in your meaning.

I looked up the term and from what I read, the quote’s not talking about characters, but self-indulgent writing in general. It’s part of a slightly-larger bit about how if you’re writing a story and suddenly get an itch to write a whole bunch about some randomly compelling concept, to write it out and then delete it before your book goes out to print.

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I am very grateful to you for positing this topic. Anduin being decidedly bereft of toxic masculinity is something that would have been interesting if the writers actually had a handle on their toxic masculinity. Alas, they did not.

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Well that’s quite a different concept altogether, and one I actually agree with. I’ve just always thought it meant your favorite original characters?? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

why is this comment so damn funny!

Thank you sir, have a heart.

Nah, it’s about anything that you may have put a lot of effort or emotion into that’s ultimately not necessary to tell the story, no matter how much it means to you.

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/what-does-it-mean-to-kill-your-darlings

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Plot armour is not a good thing IMO. But I would definitely not be agains a reconstruction story like Astro City, ngl.

Yeah, if a characte is “destined” to die / be phased out of the story, it’s not as bad to be attached to it as being to someone who is present throughout a big chunk of the narrative, or in the focus of it.

Totally.

I am sorry, english is not my language, so sometimes I sound harsh / not clear. But yes, I was mentioning that being attached to a character when this character is not meant to have a long lasting effect on the world is not as bad IMO.

There are different interpretations. But specifically here what I meant is that I dislike when I see in the story who are the characters that creator likes personally.


gl hf

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That’s perfectly sound, and literally just means “edit your story,” lol, I hate writers sometimes, always tryna be flowery with their words instead of saying what they mean. :relieved::purple_heart: lovehate, not hatehate.

Why? Illidan not being perfect is what makes him, him. The only reason in Warcraft 3 he didnt just let the Legion win is because he still cared about Tyrande. Illidan trying to win Tyrande over even thought she has made up her mind makes a flawed character that is interesting.

I’d also point out he did end up leaving Tyrande alone in the end because he still cared about her and his brother and thought it would actually make them happy.

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Because it felt like a retcon of how things left off in TFT.

I admit also because his single minded obsession for one woman for ten millenia feels uncharacteristic and bordering on a bit creepy at times, but I admit that him being uncharacteristic in other ways already permeates his character.

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How can it be a retcon? When most of the interactions between him/Tyrande were expounded on during WoTA, which happened before TFT.

As for his obsession with Tyrande, considering the guy spent 10,000 years in solitary I could see why he would cling to the one image that always gave him the most amount of happiness.

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