Which is why it was absurd that the Horde had to go by ground to actually attack Teldrassil. You do understand that the Horde could have attacked an island by the sea, or by air, while avoiding the natural meatgrinder of Ashenvale and Darkshore right? Which is why “us not even having a single boat in that entire battle, even to get our ground forces to Teldrassil from the Darkshore coast” is so absurd.
Sigh … but … I’m done. The NE PC race has my least favorite Racial Fantasy for many, many reasons. Some of them in concept, some of them due to their players expectations. But it is what it is. I should just accept that their fans are very passionate, and the expected power fantasy for them isn’t even operating in the same genre of Fantasy the Horde is allowed to play on. And that us, even getting a “barely” win with the NEs at so many disadvantages (and being constantly shamed about it by the writing staff) should be the closest thing to a power fantasy I as a Horde player should ever expect.
Well again, you’re framing “barely win” in the context of wiping an entire nation from the board, overland. I think we agree that it’s sort of a ridiculous scenario that, if the game considered things like how hard it would be to concentrate the forces of an entire playable faction in one spot - assuming that they don’t ever have to guard their own lands or worry about reprisals, or matters like logistics, supply trains, and geopolitical barriers, would never have occurred.
But it did occur, because Blizzard wanted to give the Horde this big crushing looking W, albeit with some asterisks, sure - so that they could present them as the expansion’s villain.
I also don’t really think my power fantasy is terribly out of line here - I want the Night Elves to hold down their position in Northern Kalimdor, and I don’t mind if they have to consult allies or adapt to do it. You’re not going to find me saying “Oh! The Kaldorei should totally be able to drive the goblins out of Azshara by laserbeaming them with nature magic!” I think that would be absurd, and more importantly, unfair to you.
because we have multiple sources, multiple, like the uvg, who said the worgen lost. i mean, you could argue the battle of gilneas change a little bit, and i would agree, but a battleground is a vague …“place” in terms of lore.
You really haven’t been around for a long time have you. Believe it or not, Elune doing this was pushed forward on several occasions. Which … man, the Goblin-NE comparison has got to be one of the single most unfair PC racial comparisons in the entire game (and I’ve seen it many times over the years). And Azshara is sort of this weird sticking point for some NE fans, as holding it is important to reassert “something”? I guess them having control over the zone right in the main Horde capital’s backyard would be an ego boost.
Regardless, no, I don’t consider the WoT in any way some big assertion of Horde power fantasy. We fought too weird, and the NEs has too many arbitrary handicaps on them, for me to really look at that and get any semblance of satisfaction from it. Even if just on a logistic level. I’m just … so … tired, of Blizz reducing my faction into little more than zugzug hapless villains. Truly, I honestly think the single most disheartening thing about playing Horde in BfA was when the only good thing we got out of the expansion (our ARs) openly expressed regret for joining our faction; or akin’d us to the Legion. Like, god, what am I supposed to think about that Blizz? There was so much garbage in BfA, but that really hit me hard.
One could argue that the goblins, with their destruction and ruthlessness towards nature, and their desire for explosions, are a certain nemesis for the night elves.
Believe it or not, Elune doing this was pushed forward on many occasions.
Yeah, and that’s an area where I’m going to agree with you. The Night Elves have done some ridiculous things, particularly in books, that I don’t think would import well into the game. That’s why I try to couch my arguments less in “nature magic uber alles” and more in things like geography and logistics. I especially don’t like that the Alliance has to rely on these superpowered characters like Jaina and now Tyrande - I think they make the whole setting incomprehensible.
Regarding Azshara, yeah, I’m not thrilled that we lost it, but from a game balance perspective, taking it means doing to your playable race what I feel was done to mine, and I’m not prepared to sign on to that. Further, I’m not prepared to argue that it’s reasonable for the Night Elves to charge screaming over the Southfury gorge, into open plains, right into the teeth of a World War I artillery barrage. I think they can use that river gorge defensively, to deny such an attack, but to attack over it? No, just no.
As for the Horde power fantasy being expressed in BFA, I’m not sure that’s the most precise way to put it. I argue that the Horde were presented as competent, formidable, terrifying, etc., so that they could be hyped up as the expansion villain, but power fantasy DOES import those elements I was trying to compartmentalize earlier. That implies choice in how you use that power which, no, the Horde player did not have that choice, they were rubberstamped as the bad guy and led into a story which, as it goes on, yes does humiliate them and does ruin their motivation.
That’s not my point. On a historical level it makes sense for Goblins to be the way they are. 3000 years of slavery in Heavy Metal mines, with your only salvation being intergenerational exposure to the very toxic substance you and your people are forced to work to death harvesting … will define a culture in many ways. The Gobs current tech civilization only has existed for about 100 years, that’s like .07% of Tyrande’s estimated lifespan. They have a long way to go, but have come a long way.
I call the NEs the Trust-Fund Kids of the Wild-Gods, because in many ways … that is what they are. The greatest threats they ever really faced came from within, but they were gifted and blessed in so many different ways. Both by virtue of where they were guided to live; and literal blessings and investment by god like beings (or just the only real god in Warcraft). That same world for Gobs tho? Was Unforgiving, Ruthless, and Cruel. Yet, they’ve built themselves up from nothing in a very short amount of time.
I think the major key to the gobs amazing success in such a short time is they don’t let the past define them. They’re constantly pushing forward and are driven to succeed at any cost
They have a really weird way of showing that in game, given the events of Tyrande becoming the Night Warrior. Sylvanas was like, “If both Tyrande and Malfurion are here, they can stop us”, and yet… Both are there, and one is juiced up on the power of a wrathful god, and they can’t stop 2 val’kyr and Nathanos, let alone the entire Horde army. And not killing all 3 of them, but just… stopping them from raising dead night elves.
(Use an interrupt, jeez.)
I don’t need to tell you how inconsistent Blizz is about its depictions of power in the lore, but why was Sylvanas so damn scared of the two of them? Malfurion got defeated by a regular axe (a large axe, but a regular one) to the back, and Tyrande can’t seem to use her auto-kill moon-lasers on anything with a proper name floating above its head.
Is it less that she figured the two of them would route the Horde and more that she figured they’d 2v1 her and take her out, or what?
The key is, they don’t have a past to define them … or hold them back. Its why the loss of Kezan (and very likely the Undermine underneath) was not really received as this huge loss. Even though it is conceptually one of the most recent near extinction level events in WoW. Goblins don’t have time to look back, and nothing to look back too … so they march forwards. Always forwards. Recklessly so a lot of the time.
They may destroy themselves certainly in their own momentum, but if Gobs like Gazlowe and Mida are any indication … they may stabilize enough to truly become something great.
I’m going to put a couple of asterisks next to that.
First off, reading Droite’s explanation does give me a window into what she sees in them. I think it’s not one that’s well portrayed, but, well done.
The only fly in the ointment I will make reference to however, is that goblin tech has mostly been the same since Warcraft 2, with the exception of the gaining, and then losing of Blastfuse technology. There are a number of explanations for that certainly, but asserting a linear line of future progression I think is in error.
That brings me to the asserted power fantasy of Night Elves - and here is where I think I do differ from other Night Elf fans. From my point of view, they did adapt significantly since Warcraft 3 - from a place of long, if understandable complacency. The lore has them adapting things like cannons, guns - things like this were in Cataclysm and Elegy - they worked hand-in-glove with the gnomes in Stonetalon - a partnership that reached back to Vanilla that I wished could have been expanded upon. I understand that there are a lot of Night Elf fans who don’t want to see the Night Elves adapt and grow in light of the new situation - I’m not one of them. I would just like them to put their own independent spin on it.
But, I’m kind of getting on a side point that is heavily steeped in my own bias. My warden character was an engineer, and I RPed that. I also wrote a short story about a gnome and a druid grafting a cannon onto an ancient so… maybe I’m a little weird.
Well, that’s all well and good and justified somewhere, however if they were such trustfund kiddos, why are they usually thrown into the meat grinder as front figures in the biggest threats the world face?
Legion
Fallen Aspects
Elementarlord
Naga
Old Gods and the Nightmare
Now against death itself.
I mean, if they would this trust-fund-kids, they would not endure such events, or survive at all
Honestly, 8/10 battles the Night Elves fight are not against Mortals, but against some “supernatural” forces.
Well, but isn’t it only right to give the night elves these buffs, so that they can do what they are supposed to do and also …change something in the outcome of the battle? I mean, we heroes get all the time buffs aswell to do what we have to do, without it, we would have failed so many times?
Yeah, and I both understand why they do well against them, and am starting to realize this may be part of their problem. Like, even among the supernatural … my god do they get bad matchups pitted against them.
Like the Firelands? Holy Crap, of all the elements that could have hit Hyjal, the living incarnation of Fire against Plant and Wind specialists would be a nightmare! And the NEs did OK considering. Then you have the Nightmare in Legion, with Xavius of all people at the helm. What a kryptonite issue that was, yet … still the NEs persisted. Regardless, most of the Trust Fund elements came from the foundation built for the NEs, over what the Wild Gods and Aspects have done recently. The NEs were given a lot as “children”, but, every now and then, on occasion their parent figures do come into help out.