When the alternative option is sulking and skulking, yes. I think youre forgetting the overall World of Warcraft structure here. It’s not high art. It’s a video game with fairly straightforward and simplistic stories by and large. Baine and Saurfang aren’t people in the real world, they’re characters in the video game. And they don’t mesh with Horde honor.
That is speculation. Yes, even with all evidence of how she acted and acts, it remains speculation. And will continue to be until someone summons up the courage to find out.
Of the two, Baine is the more likely to win a Mak’gora against Sylvanas. In this instance, Youth (rather than Experience) would win out in the end. When he lets his rage out (like his AU self that gave into his rage over Cairne’s death), he’s established to not only have enough pure, raw, aggressive power to defeat Garrosh in Mak’Gora; but also rip the Orc in half with his bare hands. The kid is no joke if he ever let loose … too bad he’s never allowed to.
The issues are, Sylvanas’ Banshee Powers (which are not banned) puts characters with ONLY physical options available at a HUGE disadvantage. Her overwhelming fear of her own afterlife presents a second and MORE problematic issue to overcome; because it ensures that if she (even for a moment) thought she might lose out of pure luck alone … she would find a way to remove that chance from the equation (cheating in a way that would be immeasurably difficult to prove).
I don’t think there is a way for Saurfang to defeat her in single combat … Baine … maybe has a tiny chance (but ONLY under the circumstance that he somehow reclaims “Fearbreaker”, which due to the apparent “Light based” magical properties of that weapon may compensate slightly for Banshee powers). However, THAT weapon is currently in the hands of Anduin Wrynn … and man Horde fans would fly off the handle if Anduin played a part (ANY part) in Baine beating Sylvie.
I’m just gonna point out Saurfang actually wanted to mak’gora Sylvanas after burning Teldrassil but he didn’t - not because he thought he can’t win, but because he agreed with her.
I appreciate you taking the time and effort into replying and I don’t want to come across as a jerk or anything. Saying that, you are still speculating and speculation amounts to little. Nobody knows for sure if Sylv would win or lose a challenge (at this point, I doubt even the writers until it’s coded into the game). Since this is a video game not bound by real world logic, nobody knows til it happens.
What’s more, that wasn’t my main point though. My main point is Baine and Saurfang are not acting with Horde honor, they’re acting in bad faith.
Him wanting to challenge her, and him believing he could actually win such a fight are two very different things. He may be the Cleave King, but she’s the Banshee Queen … and honestly Saurfang would consider dying in a dual against her an “honorable” way to go out (if he had the right reasons to challenge her, which he did not feel he had at the time of “A Good War”).
And Sylvanas is manipulating “Horde Honor” against the Horde to act in equally bad faith. She’s absolutely using the Horde conception of Honor through loyalty against the people of the Horde to keep them in line. Beyond that, the concept of Honor varies between the various Horde races that value that principle. The Tauren’s conception of Honor is in no way the same as Orcs, even if they do have some shared elements (they are two different cultures).
Also, speculation is all we have … but with Sylvie’s strange power boosts as of recently, I feel pretty safe in my assessment. A Mak’Gora (as things currently sit), for either Saurfang or Baine, would only result in a meaningless death that reinforced Sylvie’s authority over the Horde (and likely mean trouble for their own people). Just like Cairne’s Mak’gora against Garrosh resulted in…
I thought I touched on this in my first post of this conversation, but I’ll say again that the ‘Horde-ness’ of the Horde and especially the leadership structure comes from orc culture. And all that comes with it. Mak’gora, deference in times of war, yadda. Tauren feelings on honor are moot when it comes to Horde leadership. Yes, it’s a dictatorship. For.The.Horde.
I agree, but speculation is not certainty and shouldn’t be taken as such. That is the impression you give me.
It wasn’t about Derek’s life, watch what he calls Sylvanas on when its made apparent he free’d Derek. He calls her on her abandonment of even one of the MOST important core values of HER OWN people (Free Will). His choice to free Derek ironically had little to do with the Alliance … he was pissed at Sylvanas abandoning her own people’s core tenants (and by extension that says a LOT about how she likely views the cultural tenants of the other races of the Horde).
Plus, “IF” Sylvie’s plan was really what she claimed it was … it was a stupid one. Granted, I think the game was always to push Baine over the edge to get him to release Derek (because Baine returning Derek, and publicly being arrested for that act, would take suspicion off her sleeper agent), but if she really didn’t intend for Baine to “rescue” Derek … Derek serves better as a potential “Olive Branch” with the Alliance (keeping a window for diplomacy open) should the War continue to go in the Alliance’s favor.
EDIT: As a side note, IF Sylvie really wanted Baine to “rescue” Derek, then any Horde that died in his attempts to do so were considered acceptable losses by her in pursuit of such a plan. Just … consider that for the moment.
I think it was Nathanos? Anyway, it’s not about Sylvanas or Nathanos but Baine. I’m aware he really didn’t like raising of Derek (more than Burning of Teldrassil) and couldn’t allow it.
But what I don’t get it is… he kills multiple Horde soldiers just to release him which clearly implies he put more value into his life over multiple Horde soldiers. He could’ve thought that releasing him may pay off in the future when he wants to negotiate with Alliance again but that’s never implied, he kills Horde soldiers on the way purely because he didn’t want Derek being locked up and brainwashed.
Saurfang killing Horde soldiers can be considered self-defense as they came to capture/assasinate him and it doesn’t hurt his “Horde Honor” but Baine? He valued a life of Derek over Horde lives. He just killed them to reach his goal (much like Sylvanas at Lordaeron).
Well, there is an element of whether you consider Sylvanas loyalists as soldiers loyal to the Horde (but that is another bag of worms), but Baine did attempt to spare any and all Horde troops that surrendered … even though it meant that he would assuredly be caught in his act. As a result, the death toll was pretty minor. Also, Nathanos doesn’t do anything without Sylvanas’ consent. Her grip on him is showing some small signs of weakening, but he’s still very much her puppet atm.
As for Baine’s motives … Baine feels that Sylvanas’ abandonment of her own people’s values bodes pretty poorly on how she perceives the values of the other races of the Horde.
Consider the armor you’re wearing for example. Its the Racial Heritage set right? While Sylvanas was featured within that questchain, what was the pivotal event in BE history that that heritage quest was about? “The Fall of Quel’thalas” and the taking of the Blood Elf name right? Welp, due to the MASSIVE narrative parallels between events, Sylvie’s “Burning of Teldrassil” (and the BEs inclusion in that) has now laced that event, that quest, that armor, and even the BEs racial name … with hypocrisy.
The BEs (and the Horde) were turned into Sylvie’s personal Scourge in what amounted to a “Fall of Quel’thalas” type event against another people. Even Tyrande’s “Forming of the Night Warriors” is a beat-for-beat repeat of Liadrin’s “Formation of the Blood Knights”. Should the NEs start calling themselves the “Ash Elves” so they always “Remember the World Tree” now? Regardless of their frigid relationship with the NEs, the BEs should be LIVID about this (and Lor’themar especially should be VERY pissed).
LOL, well I never implied I wanted Baine to become something like Warchief; but I’d be remiss to say that he’d by no means be the only Horde leader that prioritized their own people, over the needs of the Entire Horde. Hell, THAT type of leader isn’t even the worst one could hope for in this faction … looks at my Racial Leader who happens to also be the harbinger of my people’s destruction (someday Gazlowe you’ll take charge … I still believe; don’t really care that you’re Steamweedle).
Plus, you are right, as much as he does hold a friendship with Anduin, Jaina is the only Alliance character to get him to act. He does owe her for helping with the Grimtotem Rebellion, and aiding in the Destruction of HER home was likely not what he was hoping to do to repay her (a person he considered an Honorable Enemy) for her kindness (considering Theramore turned Jaina into a raving, Horde-hating, psychotic … who’s only very recently started winding down).
I think its only a problem depending on your perspective.
As a Horde player who’s increasingly grown to detest the Faction Conflict (in no small part due to the massive power imbalance between the factions, and just how all consuming it has become to the Horde identity) … Baine would not be my first choice as Warchief; but, I also do recognize that he’s structurally meant to be a young leader who is still developing, not one that is fully actualized just yet.
As a result, I’m not overtly concerned whether the Alliance players would like a Warchief OR not; their opinion is irrelevant to me. If the Warchief position needs to remain as it is (rather than it being removed or changed to deal with its clear structural problems), all I care about is who can do the job. Whether Baine could do it or not … unsure. Not my first choice, but there are certainly worse options.
Also, what they have done in this expansion with characters like Lillian Voss shows that the writers are 100% willing to just replace an NPC’s previous characterization with something completely new and let the players try to fill in the blanks on how he/she got from point A to point B. They could make Baine warchief, start writing him like Vanilla Thrall, and then watch the players come up with guesses about how “responsibility has changed him.”
Even Lor’themar was far more proactive. Back during MoP he was making preparations to bail from the Horde entirely (treason or no, he was at least acting according to his beliefs instead of grumbling and doing nothing). It took the efforts of Garrosh and the failures of Jaina and Aethas to foil that plot.
Baine? No one’s ever needed to take any actions to check Baine. He considers himself replaceable because he is. The killing of pretty much every other Horde leader except for Gallywix would be a massive blow to them, but Baine’s never shown himself to be any sort of leader. It’s like he figured keeping Cairne’s seat warm was enough. Worse yet, he’s pretty much the sole spotlight on Tauren. Since MoP the race have kind of just been passive cutouts, and it creates a massive disconnect between Baine and every generic ‘For the Horde!’ tauren questgiver or npc you encounter.
I mean … its a possibility. Ever notice how Baine hero worships Thrall’s generation (Cairne, Thrall, Vol’jin, Saurfang)? While he may try to emulate them, there is a distance there (and has always sort of been). He’s not of Thrall’s generation, he’s of the next generation of Horde (so along the Talanji, Mayla, and Geya’rah group). .And yes, Anduin is in that “developing” Leader archetype as well.
This is a good point. I think the Tauren represent a narrative problem for Blizzard. Blizzard has clearly pegged the Horde as the perpetual villains in the faction conflict. But there is also a longstanding tradition that the Tauren are amongst the most peaceable of all the playable races. So how do you square that circle? Blizzard seems to have done it by mostly just ignoring the Tauren, or by having their leader act as if he disapproves of the Horde even though he basically just keeps following orders.
It makes the entire race, not just Baine, come off as lacking conviction. Ironically, the biggest, strongest of all the playable races just seems…weak. Like they don’t really like what they are being asked to do, but mostly just keep doing it anyway, albeit with some grumbling.
Contrast with Cairne. Nobody screwed around with him, and when he had a problem, he took action to solve it. Take the current situation with Baine and imagine Cairne in that position. Does anyone doubt that he’d have thrown down with Sylvanas long ago? Can anyone imagine him sneaking around behind the Warchief’s back and then going meekly off to prison?
This is why most Horde players can’t stand Baine, even though most of us are also unhappy with Sylvanas. Blizzard has saddled us with a super villain for our faction leader, and then as alternatives keeps presenting us with characters who seem to need the Alliance’s help.
Hey, its no different then how they handle the Gnomes; where their tech is invaluable, unless its inconvenient for the story (so it magically doesn’t exist).
Like, anyone remember when both factions had submarines? One’s that could fire torpedos? I’m finding it hard to justify why the Kul Tiran and Zandalari navies were important in the slightest, when both are using outdated tech that could have easily been countered by Gob and Gnome engineering.
There are some things you could fix with ease (like with the Legion finally gone the Draenei sent the Vindecaar to Outlands to start repairing TK and evacuating their people; dealing with that narrative issue), but then there are other elements like Tech that shows up … then disappears.
Further: I am currently hoping for the return of Thrall. And that’s not great, because I don’t really love the narrative that the Horde can only successfully function with Papa Thrall in charge.
But he’s about the only top tier character we have who seems strong in his convictions, loyal to the Horde, and neither a psychopath nor dependent on the Alliance.