An Argument to Bring Back Challenge Mode Appearances

In this post, I make an argument for the return of the MoP and WoD challenge mode appearances using achievement attainment data. I personally only care for the return of the WoD appearances, and of them solely the Greatsword of the Inferno; no other sword model in the game comes close to the look of this item and it being locked behind an achievement from 7 years ago is lame.

I do not want the Greatsword of the Inferno transmog because it is “rare.” I want it because it is bar-none the best-looking sword model in the game. It being currently unobtainable has literally zero impact on my desire to have this transmog; the visual appearance of the item is the sole reason I want it.

All data taken from [dataforazeroth]

MoP Challenge Mode Achievement Data

  • Challenge Conqueror - 7.4266%

  • Challenge Conqueror: Bronze - 7.4220%

  • Challenge Conqueror: Silver - 7.3887%

  • Challenge Conqueror: Gold - 6.8832%

Challenge Conqueror required that a player simply completed all 9 challenge mode dungeons irrespective of the time it took to complete said dungeons. Challenge Conqueror: Gold required that a player complete all 8 challenge mode dungeons within the time allotted for a gold completion.

This indicates that 92.68% of players that even attempted to complete all 9 dungeons on challenge mode completed the dungeons within the most difficult time restriction.

WoD Challenge Mode Achievement Data

  • Challenge Warlord - 5.6778%

  • Challenge Warlord: Bronze - 5.5861%

  • Challenge Warlord: Silver - 5.5072%

  • Challenge Warlord: Gold - 5.2647%

Challenge Warlord required that a player simply completed all 8 challenge mode dungeons irrespective of the time it took to complete said dungeons. Challenge Warlord: Gold required that a player complete all 8 challenge mode dungeons within the time allotted for a gold completion.

This indicates that 92.72% of players that even attempted to complete all 8 dungeons on challenge mode completed the dungeons within the most difficult time restriction.

Significance

This data suggests that the challenge mode dungeon achievements, and the rewards offered for completing them on the “highest difficulty,” are not exclusive based on any requirement of skill but rather based on whether not a player ever attempted them. In other words, players who played during MoP and WoD, if they attempted to obtain them, were nearly guaranteed to get the challenge mode appearances.

If completing the dungeons within the gold completion time truly was difficult, you would expect to see a decent dropoff from bronze to silver to gold; in reality, we don’t see this as there is an extremely minimal dropoff from bronze to gold for both MoP and WoD. For reference, the bronze completion time for most of the CM dungeons was roughly an hour, while the gold completion time was roughly 18-20 minutes.

In my opinion, the argument that in order to bring these appearances back – or even recolors of them – Blizzard needs to make sure the content is as “difficult” as it was back then is without merit. If less than 8% of the players who even attempted to complete all the challenge mode dungeons didn’t do so on the hardest difficulty, I’m not sure they can even be described as difficult to begin with.

Comparison to M+ Completion

  • Shadowlands Keystone Explorer: Season Three - 17.6121%

  • Shadowlands Keystone Conqueror: Season Three - 13.6122%

  • Shadowlands Keystone Master: Season Three - 10.1927%

  • Shadowlands Keystone Hero: Season Three - 3.3220%

Keystone Explorer requires an M+ rating of 900, equivalent to completing all 10 dungeons at a +5 level. Keystone Hero requires an M+ rating of 3000, equivalent to completing all 10 dungeons at a +20 level.

This indicates that 18.86% of players that completed all dungeons at a +5 level completed all dungeons at a +20 level. 57.87% of players that completed all dungeons at a +5 level completed all dungeons at a +15 level.

In my opinion, an 81% decline in completion of content from its least challenging to most challenging can likely be described as difficult. Even using KSM numbers – the difficulty level at which most players stop – there is a 42% decline, which I would still argue is indicative of difficult content, at the very least more so than the MoP and WoD challenge modes.

Overall Point

The overall point of this post is to show that the MoP and WoD challenge mode appearances have no reason not to be brought back due to claims of difficulty. The only argument one could make for why they shouldn’t return is simply because Blizzard said so, which in of itself is a quite poor reason. Blizzard also said that players would not be able to easily swap covenants; look where we are now.

Videos of players completing the challenge mode dungeons are easily found on YouTube, most of which are speed runs in which the players beat the dungeon in roughly 25% of the gold completion time; some groups did not even bring a healer. For example, a group beat the Scarlet Halls in 2:49, while the gold completion time was 13:00.

Those who argue that these appearances should not come back because Blizzard has removed them: are you conscious of the fact that you are defending an older-than-dirt sales tactic meant to elicit a false sense of urgency from the consumer? Blizzard deserves zero defense for outright removing these appearances from the game just because they said they would; if anything, they deserve criticism for making them unobtainable in the first place.

Getting enjoyment from having something solely because other people do not have it is a very loser mentality. I obtained the Victorious skins from every single League of Legends season that I have played (rewarded for reaching at least gold in ranked); I could not care less if literally everyone that plays League was given those skins because they do not appeal to me or most other people that have them. If someone who did not play during those seasons did want one because of their visual appeal, I would be totally fine with them having it.

With Blizzard planning on adding MoP and WoD dungeons into the M+ rotation in Dragonflight, these appearances could easily be re-introduced as a reward for achieving KSM. I doubt this will be the case, but if season 1 has 4 MoP dungeons and season 2 has 4 WoD dungeons, they could make the appearances rewards for those respective seasons.

45 Likes

Gonna stop you right there. Limited time challenge rewards are limited time. They shouldn’t come back. Blizzard was adamant about them not coming back. And that’s how it should be.

Keep in mind, I don’t have the appearances I wanted, so this isn’t about me. Limited time challenge modes are the only things I will always adamantly be against returning.

I’m confused. The low percentages you gave were the percentages of the playerbase that completed that achievement.

So how do you figure there’s 93% that did this?

I’m confused again. Less than 8% got the achievements and somehow that makes them not difficult?

And that’s not the argument. So your point is moot.

29 Likes

people who wanted them, at least in mop, made the decision to get gold for the appearances. there was no compelling reason to just get silver and stop. and nobody who didn’t find cms interesting would have completed all 8 without timing them.

comparing them to m+ seems silly when m+ provides such good rewards for players at all levels (well, up through +15 anyway)

12 Likes

You’re a brave one to even suggest that they bring something removed back.
Why not a bit of a compromise, just release said sets as a recolor.
Of course that would upest the MuH ExCluSIvE pixels crowd either way.

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They did this with some sets in Legion already. So they can continue to do so.

And the new weapons from Spulcher are remodels of some of the Legion MT appearances, as well.

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Basic arithmetic.

  • Challenge Warlord - 5.6778%
  • Challenge Warlord: Gold - 5.2647%

5.2647%/5.6778% = 92.72%

I.E. only about 8% of people who attempted to complete the challenge mode dungeons did not do so at the highest difficulty.

I made no statement about the total player base; my wording was very specific.

Can you give a reason why Blizzard shouldn’t bring any of these appearances back other than because they said so? Why do people bring this up as if it’s a good argument? As I said, it’s a scummy sales tactic and I don’t know how anyone defends it. The files for the appearances are literally on my machine; it’s not as if there is some scarcity of resources preventing me from getting them.

7 Likes

I mean… they kind of brought back a recolor in Legion.

I for one really wish they would bring back the WoD S1 Elite gear (even a recolor), cause those models are so unique and different (for example, the Red power ranger Warrior) to every other set in the game.

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Limited time means limited time. There should be no reason to bring them back under any circumstance.

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I don’t disagree with this but again it shows that there was no real difficulty to it; if essentially anyone who wanted them could get them then it’s not exclusive by skill/difficulty.

The M+ comparison isn’t perfect but it’s the closest thing we have in the game right now considering Challenge Mode was a precursor to M+. That being said, since the player power rewards are much greater for M+ than CM you would expect more people to attempt to get at least KSM since the gear caps at 15.

Tldr please :yawning_face:

If i wanted to read a 1000 word + article I’ll go on wowhead.

7 Likes

???

I’m still reading the whole post but… no way. I distinctly remember how tough it was. At least for me. I probably tried hundreds of times with different groups before I actually got gold. Can’t even compare it to m+ since m+ feels so much easier and relaxed.

Still, I support all the limited stuff coming back just because I absolutely despise FOTM. I missed out on the WoD CM too just because by that point I was still burnt out from MoP CMs. You see, I got the gold sets on 8 different classes.

I can promise you that’s not how it was at all.

To put it in perspective, I got the book mount from Timewalking MT the first week it came out (went even further and got the transmog for every class) and even that felt easy compared to MoP CM’s. Sure it’s just my subjective opinion and take it with a grain of salt, but saying “everyone who wanted it got it” is just insulting…

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Your percentages are the total amount of people who have those achievements. Thus the confusion and why I’m not following your logic.

Because limited time items are actually good for games and marketing and players. You may not care about exclusivity and earning something during a time period, but others do. And you’re ignoring their feelings and their accomplishments.

I respect those who took the time to get those appearances, even though I didn’t. And a few items staying limited is not the end of the world. There are hundreds upon hundreds of other transmogs.

Ask for new ones or remodels.

No it isn’t. You’re being dramatic. Life is full of limited time items.

This isn’t an argument and no one brought it up.

5 Likes

I don’t know where he’s getting his math from. It makes no sense.

7 Likes

Here is a group doing Grimrail depot in 2:48 with no healer.

www(dot)youtube(dot)com/watch?v=sTLw15IGo-s

If you found it difficult I can’t tell you that you didn’t; what videos like this show me is that they really weren’t that difficult overall. Even the fastest MDI runs arent this fast or trivial by the fact that a healer isn’t even brought.

2 Likes

There were a few super OP classes with super good players.

Again, literally 8% of the playerbase got those achievements and you’re trying to use a poor excuse as an argument that doesn’t even make sense.

6 Likes

that isn’t your average player lol

using an extreme example to compare it to your baseline average isn’t a good argument. That’s like if I invited a prot to my raid and expected him to solo the raid boss because some guy did it solo a few years back, or inviting a lock to my RBG group and expecting him to 1 tap the whole team because Rextroy did it so why can’t he?

Be realistic here. Most of my friends I made around then during those runs never even got it for one class, it wasn’t easy at all.

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I’m not sure that’s possible for the OP. lol

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Yeah, this is what I’d be thinking too. There wasn’t much incentive to just stop short of gold.

Plus, as you said M+ has more ‘mass appeal’ since it offers player power. CMs didn’t, so most players who were interested in gearing up would have simply ignored them.

They used the percentage of the total playerbase for their achievement statistics, but then they looked at percentages of those statistics as well. So they’re suggesting that about 7.5% got at least one MoP achievement, and over 90% of specifically that 7.5% got gold as well. That’s the ‘logic’ there.

The percentages that I have listed next to the name of the achievements are the percentage of total players that have attained those achievements. Simply using those numbers as an indicator of difficulty is bad.

For example, the achievement Court Favors is awarded to a player that unlocks every single favor for the Ember Court. 0.2339% of the playerbase has this achievement. Are we supposed to come to the conclusion that this achievement, which likely consists of little to no combat, is more difficult that both the MoP and WoD gold challenge mode dungeons?

I’m comparing the easiest form of the challenge modes to the hardest form of the challenge modes to show that if one day in WoD you just decided you wanted to get the appearances, basically anyone could.

I don’t know how you are confusing what I’m saying with the 8% especially since I wrote the formula down. 8% of the player base did not get the gold challenge mode achievements. 8% of the players who completed all the dungeons, regardless of how long it took them, did not complete all the dungeons within the gold time limit.

let’s say 100 people completed the dungeons regardless of the time it took them. The 8% value means that 92 of those people completed the dungeons within the gold time limit. Only 8 failed to get gold.

1 Like

Nah, retired needs to stay retired. I miss some cool stuff too, but I’m not entitled to it because I either didn’t participate or I wasn’t subbed. Snooze you lose.

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