AMZ and Raise Ally

Classes Death Knight
1

… Should their limitations (like absorb cap and 30 RP respectively) be removed?

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/en/wow/t/feedback-death-knights/1279518/222

Reading the latest DK feedback post in beta written by Taeznak got me thinking how lack of utility we as the class bring relative to other classes.

We got…

Along with an instant Brez. Which currently cost 30 Runic Power… Sleet and a decaying 90% AoE slow along with 70% slow for 8 second if you can count that as a utility.

Demon Hunters have Sinful Brand, Darkness, Dispel, Imprison, Chaos Nova, Sigil of Silence (AoE Silence), Sigil of Misery… and Sigil of Chains for Vengeance.
Druids have Mark of the Wild, Mass Root, Stampeding Roar, Ursol’s Vortex, Rebirth, Typhoon and Cyclone… and an AOE SILENCE if you’re a laser chicken.
Evokers have Blessing of the Bronze, Rescue, Zephyr, Time Spiral. All are useful within raid fights.
Warriors have Battle Shout, Rallying Cry, Spear of Bastion, Wrenching Impact, Shockwave. Situationally Intimidating Shout.
Paladins have AURAS, Blessings, Bubble. To each of them have very powerful effects and they will have a BREZ. That cost 3 Holy Power and a 2 second cast. That’s a yikes from me dawg.
Rogues have Mind-Numbing Poison, Tricks of the Trade, Shroud of Concealment (Actually a M+ utility if anything), Sap, Gouge, Blind, … and Restless Crew if you’re Outlaw (wtf is this utility)
Monks have Mystic Touch, Ring of Peace, Generous Pour, Close to Heart and Windwalking, Paralysis, Leg Sweep, Tiger’s Lust.
Hunters have Mass Hysteria, Sentinel, Binding Shot, Tar Trap, Freezing Trap, and Bursting Shot for MM.
Shamans have Bloodlust/Heroism, various totems provide very useful effects and a self Brez.
Priests have POWER INFUSION, PW: Fortitude, Leap of Faith, Mass Dispel, Symbol of Hope… Holy and Discipline each bring their own bonkers utility like Hymn, Symbol and PW: Barrier.
Mages have AI, Time Warp, Frost/Ice Nova (Ring of Frost), Mass Polymorph, Dragon’s Breath (and maybe Blast Wave), Refreshments and Portals.
Warlocks have Cookies, Gateway, Soulstone (smarter Brez), Curse of Weakness, Shadowfury, Closet (This is actually one of biggest reason why a WL is important in pug environments)

We bring a nerfed AMZ, an instant Brez, Sleet, Slow, AS redox and Grips which are all feel very limited to use. Sleets and slow may not always be useful in all fights. AS redox is not a unique utility. Grips are very strong but situational at best since we’re not gonna fight Sun King or Dormazain all the time.

I don’t know, what do you guys think about the first sentence of this post? Am I missing anything from other classes?

4 Likes
2

the cost on brez should be removed, but idk about amz, we had it with no cap for a while and everyone else qq’d about being forced to even talk to a DK because they felt obligated to bring us for AMZ as a raid buff.

1 Like
3

I don’t really recall people complaining about AMZ.

Was it too good in hindsight? Yes. But with all the utilities coming to Dragonflight for other classes, maybe we should uncap it?

Besides, when something like Restless Crew exist, people might complain about Outlaw being mandatory because that raidwide CDR talent is absolutely bonkers.

4

I dont think anything can be done to raise ally to make it compelling. Paladins got a brez alongside all the other classes that already had them.

If I am not mistaken AMZ is the only Raid wide DR with a health absorb cap. It feels really bad especially when you need it for any meaningful magic damage on a boss, its gone so fast.

The thing that was missed in the nerf was it was completely gutted because top end guilds were bringing 3 DKS for AMZ. But i think this new design direction the old version of it would fit in.

The first version was 10 seconds, for 20% reduction on a 2 min CD. Our current version is 8 seconds on a 3 min CD with the health cap. If they feel the 20% is too much (tbh I don’t think it is with the class design philosophy in DF) then it could be reduced to 15-18%.

I do think that people are missing that just looking at tooltips Insidious Chill and Curse of Weakness would stack. As curse of weakness is time between attacks and insidious chill is auto attack speed, those tooltips read different intentionally.

If AMZ isnt adjusted and insidious chill isnt that big of a DR for tanks, then grip is the only reason to bring a DK to Mythic raid, but with Gorefiends still only in the blood tree, the only one you’d want is a blood DK.

I think the trees are in a good place but the raid utility isn’t there vs other classes. I think it’s highly unlikely they add and offensive ability to the tree (ie haste or attack speed for party / raid members) but i could hope that where we have the Reduced CD on Icebound Fortitude, and the spot for Lichborne getting DR, if they could turn those into choice nodes for what they offer now between those and a choice that turns them into a raid option like Hunters got for Sentinel Owl.

So it would look like Icebound Fortitude > Choice Node
Icebound fortitude CD reduction OR When you hit Icebound fortitude the whole raid takes 10% less damage and is immune to stuns.
Lichborne Choice node
Lichborne duration increased by 2 seconds and damage reduced by 15% OR Granting the raid / party 10% leech and immune to charm / sleep.

5

I think the HP cap was a poor choice of nerf for amz. I think a 2min debuff that no longer allows amz to absorb damage like Bloodlust has that’s applied after amz expiring would have been better, so there was no benefit for stacking multiple DKs for the same utility.

Although warriors shout has no draw backs and is arguably better than amz because it’s all damage not just magic.

2 Likes
6

i think the main issue is that it nullifies raid mechanics, if every important moment can be nullified by 20% just for having a DK around, then raids will stack dks, this puts blizz in a corner, either they buff the mechanic so its not trivialized by AMZ in which case it becomes punishing to not have AMZ, or they can nerf AMZ so it isn’t able to trivialize a raid mechanic as easily.

7

Rallying cry gives 15% HP with no limit on how many warriors you stack for more shouts. I would argue it’s pretty similar situation.

1 Like
8

Yeah we need something and even an unnerfed AMZ still might see us not guaranteed a raid spot. Rallying Cry is vastly superior with it covering everyone in the raid vs a small radius and effectively mitigating all damage instead of just magic damage.

Gorefiends is the only thing I can see being universally liked as an ability for DKs. Everything else is already covered in terms of raid buffs and target damage taken debuffs.

9

What I don’t understand is why there are no alternatives to warrior shout or mage arcane brilliance.

Horn of Winter should be changed to be the warrior shout analogue.

10

back in the day it was and guess when it was redesigned

and yes the 30 rp for RA is silly and dumb

11

At this point they might as well delete AMZ and nothing of value would be lost. Same for Insidious Chill, which is the biggest meme of a talent I’ve ever seen, and it’s not even unique to DK. We need a real mandatory utility to guarantee us a raid spot no matter our damage.