I’ve never mentioned anything about union or nation.
Actual sources say otherwise. If you wanna continue with fanon do it with someone else. I’m not interested.
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It’s not.
It’s cannon. Your own link to prove otherwise states this.
My own link makes a distinction between the versions of the Alliance. And my second link states that the people that lost their city reclaimed it. It wasn’t the current Alliance. Good night.
That is what “the Alliance” is
And when the OP said the Alliance had lost cities, thats what they were referring to.
You are purposely not getting it. So the discussion can’t go anywhere else.
And you are misunderstanding the basics.
In that we can absolutely agree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Warcraft Wiki (and the playerbase) may have made up terms to describe versions of the Alliance to make it more clear what they’re referencing at certain points in time, but such distinctions are not made, and do not apply to characters in-game.
This is made explicit in content such as Wolfheart, where the members of the Alliance are meeting in Darnassus to discuss (direct quote) “Gilneas’s application to rejoin the Alliance”.
It is a distinction when the very people that are occupying the area around UC and in UC were the ones wiped out. And were a part of the old Alliance, not the new Alliance. They lost their home. The new Alliance did not lose that. It fell before this new Alliance was formed. There are some Lordaeron citizens that either are or were in the current Alliance, but they don’t make the up majority of the citizens. So it can’t be a loss for the current Alliance.
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You haven’t watched any other cutscene, have you? It’s not a spoiler to say this but there was a whole cutscene that said when it was ready, it would join Azeroth because it couldn’t stay in the Dream forever. Besides, World Trees have always been a home for the Night Elves, and they couldn’t live in the Dream, therefore it had to leave. And it was safe to leave, so it did.
I mean, that’s actually muddying the waters even more if you go down that route. Sylvanas, who wasn’t even a Lordaeron resident, “reclaimed” Lordaeron after betraying and killing the forces of Grand Marshal Garithos, who did actually command living members of the remnants of Lordaeron.
The Forsaken who broke free from the Lich King during the events of the Frozen Throne undoubtedly included prior members of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, but to my knowledge there’s no actual source that states either that the Forsaken are majority made up of Lordaeron people, or that the majority of Lordaeron’s people under the Scourge broke free to become the Forsaken. By the point these events happened, the Scourge forces included humans of Lordaeron, Dalaran, humans from other Kingdoms, elves from Quel’Thalas, etc. etc. The only thing we actually do know is that the Kingdom of Lordaeron fell as a whole. We don’t even know if 2%, 5%, 20%, 30%, or half the Kingdom managed to escape into refuge.
It’s entirely plausible that the number, or proportion, of Lordaeron’s residents in the current Forsaken are similar to the number or proportion of Lordaeron refugees scattered around the Alliance. You’re just making the word “some”, and claiming they don’t make up a “majority” based on numbers you can’t really have, because there is nothing in lore that provides such.
There was no “formation” of a “new Alliance”, and no such distinction is made by the characters. THat’s kinda why the Kingdom of Lordaeron for pretty much the whole run-time of World of Warcraft has been considered disputed territory between the Alliance, the Forsaken, the Scarlet Crusade, and even the Argent Crusade. For that matter, you could technically say even the Scourge disputed ownership of the territory. Those are the literal canon events that have shaped the lore and questlines of the zones.
To be fair, that part isn’t exactly clear. The Night Elves are with us in the Emerald Dream, there’s nothing actually explaining WHY they can’t have it as their home if they felt like it. Or that their stay there has some limited duration or whatever. Druids have been spending tens of thousands of years in the Dream back when Night Elves were immortal, and it’s not like the events of this patch are happening in less than a day or something, so the idea that mortal Night Elves couldn’t pull off something begs at least some questions.
There actually is in lore about how it’s a spiritual world that is the likeness of what Azeroth had been if we weren’t there. It has ties to Ardenweald, which we all know is the plane of rebirth. You can go into the Dream and your body remains in the physical world, asleep until your soul returns and if it doesn’t… You’re stuck there. It’s a timeless dimension, and you can be there for days, weeks… Longer, and you’d never know it. And it would be up to others in the physical world to protect your body. That’s why Night Elves and druids have their burrows, to protect their physical form while they were called to the Dream. It’s a part of Night Elf and Druid life, but not some place they can stay indefinitely.
Edit: Sorry, hit esc the first time and thought I lost my post and didn’t look to see it was still there.
It’s not even slightly it’s in their very lore.
She helped them reclaim their home. Nowhere have I said Sylvanas is a Lordaeron citizen nor was.
The majority died, of them were the Forsaken who occupy where they live now. They reclaimed their home.
Scourge does not = Forsaken. They were a part of it but broke free and reclaimed their home.
They don’t have numbers other than to say that all of the rest of what still had survived was wiped out by the Scourge.
I’m claiming only that the people that died were a part of the old Alliance and died and reclaimed their land. The rest are dead or still exist in few numbers, because of Blizz’s lore saying that the kingdom fell and most of it was killed off by the Scourge.
The distinction was made by Blizzard when they formed a new Alliance.
The NPCs fighting each other doesn’t make any difference to the Forsaken’s ownership of the city. The Scarlet Crusade was pretty much pushed back anyway.
None of this has anything to do with the discussion because it’s simply about this Alliance that has only existed since the start of WoW not having ownership of UC to have lost it.
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That was certainly the lore back when the only real people using the Emerald Dream were Druids and the Green Dragonflight, but that’s not really how players are working with it atm. Fyrakk and the Druids of the Flame essentially opened a tear, and we the players go in through a portal. We the player character aren’t sleeping our way into it, deputising anyone to have to care for our physical bodies, or anything like that - it’s now just another realm we port to wholesale. Presumably, that’s how the non-Druid Night Elves like Tyrande, the Priestesses, Huntresses, etc. are also doing it.
That’s one of the drawbacks of how they’ve essentially diluted what the Emerald Dream is, sadly.
And the part about the Emerald Dream, what it is, the Dream having layers, etc., is all stuck in a book that most players probably don’t even know exists.
I don’t think you quite understood what was said, so maybe using numbers will help with that.
Let’s assume that the Kingdom of Lordaeron had 5 million residents.
Now, the Kingdom was wiped out. We don’t have a canon source to say how many people got away. So assumption 1 that you’re making up (which I think is probably actually true, but it’s important to note that IS an assumption, and not canonically evidenced), is that the majority of these residents were in fact killed. Now, majoriy can mean a lot of things, it could be 2.5 million, it could be 4 million, it could be 4.9 million.
Next step now is that of these people who died (let’s say for now it was 4 million), all of them joined the Scourge. THat’s technically assumption #2, since we’ve seen through in-game and so on that some bodies can’t be raised, are too damaged, etc. etc. And of course, there are canon characters like Uther and the other Paladins, whatever. Let’s just roll with 4 million Lordaeron residents who are all now Scourge.
Now of course, the Scourge includes all the forces of the dead. It includes those died in Dalaran, in Quel’Thalas, even in the outskirts of Gilneas, Alterac, Stormgarde, etc. etc., At some point, from all of these, a splinter faction broke off from the Lich King’s mind control and became Forsaken. We technically do not know what the composition of this splinter faction was. Plenty of Scourge did not have the mental strength to break from the Lich King’s control. From those 4 million now-Scourge Lordaeron residents, it may be that only 1 million joined the Forsaken. Or only 20,000. Or 3 million.
And of course, in all of these steps, the numbers are being reduced by true death. Some of the Scourge forces died fighting against people like Kael, and Garithos. Even against the Dreadlords during the Frozen Throne. More of the Scourge forces probably died at the hands of invading the various kingdoms, like Quel’Thalas in the first place. So it may be that by the time the Forsaken split happened nad Underci, there were only 1 million Lordaeron residents left undead in the Scourge, ergo even fewer joining the Forsaken. And from there, Forsaken forces even died during the battles and fights that led to the claiming of Lordaeron in the first place.
Hence, depending on the assumptions you’ve made along the way, there are realistic scenarios to end up with the idea that the number of Lordaeron residents alive is far lower than you’re just assuming. If, for example, only 20,000 Lordaeron Forsaken are undead, the Forsaken make up 100,000 undead as a population, but there are 100,000 Lordaeron refugees still alive, the idea that Lordaeron’s residents “reclaimed their land” is a questionable statement. The Forsaken could be described as an occupying force denying the greater portion of Lordaeron residents the ability to claim their land. I’m not saying that’s actually the case, the lore set forward ensures that we do not know. Personally, I think that’s more interesting.
Blizzard are the ones who have established that there is no such thing as a “new Alliance”. They were the ones who explicitly set out lore such as Gilneas petitioning to “rejoin” the Alliance during the events of Cataclysm, for example. Gilneas could never rejoin a faction that it was never a part of, if we were talking about 2 distinct entities.
Huh?
The Scarlet Crusade, as well as members of the Argent Dawn, are also living residents of Lordaeron. If “claim to ownership” is a thing, people who were actually living in the Kingdom, and are still living there fighting to reclaim it, are fairly relevant. At the time WoW went live, the Scarlets weren’t “pretty much pushed back” at all, they had a base of operations in Undercity’s backyard that posed an existential threat until we the players defeat them. Brill was under direct threat, and the only thing left from there is the Undercity …
I’m going to stop here on this sidetrack, because it’s getting more and more irrelevant (and it kinda already was) to the topic, and I’m not particularly interested in having to correct points of canon.
Sadly, I can’t help the writers butchering the lore and story, but WoW hasn’t been about keeping a canon lore since WoD at the very least. I don’t put a lot of stock into what they say these days and tend to go off lore before they broke it willy-nilly.
People don’t agree with that, and that’s on them. But me? Nah, you can’t live in the dream because it’s the Firmament for Nelves and Druids. Shouldn’t even be able to just WALK INTO MORDOR, but here we are. Doing it.
I could be on board if they wrote even a small thing about how the Green Dragonflight gave everyone Dreamsight or something that allowed them to see the dream in the waking world like they can while they sleep and guard the portals. But we aren’t gonna see that.
That’s a fine opinion to hold (imo), and I’d certainly be one for treating this current “Emerald Dream” as a once-off breaking of lore. But given it’s basically the ONLY in-game lore, I can’t really fault players if they’re unwilling to accept that, or suggesting ignorance on their part for things the game either doesn’t establish, or directly contradicts.
It doesn’t need numbers. They said most were killed. The kingdom was wiped out. The Forsaken were citizens of Lordaeron and reclaimed their kingdom. Does not matter how many were dead versus how many are undead. Doesn’t matter how many were Scourge versus Forsaken.
The only discussion going on is that this city never belonged to the new Alliance.
No they have not. They clearly established that it was the new Alliance. It definitely isn’t the old Alliance. They fell. Their kingdom fell.
They don’t own UC nor even Brill.
Then I’m not sure why you started this conversation with me, lol.
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Having slowly walked you through the various stages of assumptions you’re pulling out of your backside, I’m just going to leave a giant [citation required] here
Scarlet Crusade and Argent Dawn members include people who lived in both of those areas when the plague broke out. Darion Mograine, for example, lived in a farmhouse in Brill at the time. For that matter, Turalyon was of Lordaeron’s nobility, whose family undoubtedly owned estates and so on.
If you’re making claims of ownership on the basis of people who used to live in the area prior to the Scourge invasion, all of these people are on equal footing to any of the Forsaken, especially more so than Forsaken who might not even be from Lordaeron back when they were alive. Of course, the actual factor of “ownership” for the Forsaken is that they killed everyone who was alive in the region, and are the reigning power when World of Warcraft started.
To make the point that you were making a distinction as a player, that is not relevant to characters in-game. At that time, I had at least some hope that you had the ability to comprehend words written on a screen. You can keep talking about new Alliance, and old Alliance, but the game goes out of its way to establish that there is only one Alliance, and they are the same thing.
What assumptions? Are you trying to say that this Alliance ruled by a different family is the same as the Alliance of Lordaeron? It might have some of the same allied races but it is not the same. It is a different kingdom entirely.
I’m talking about UC. The conversation is entirely about UC. What are you on about with areas that don’t have to do with it? And as far as Mograine, he doesn’t claim it as home anymore.
They share in name and in some allies but it is not the same. You can keep trying to claim that to try and still have some claim to UC but you have none. It fell and it’s people occupy it, period.
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It’s not worth the effort.
This here is the main point of their misunderstanding.
They believe the entity called “the Alliance” is a nation, like a country and that it was Lordaeron, rather than the union of nations with a treaty against a common foe that it actually was.
It’s a faction. And the Kingdom of Lordaeron and the Kingdom of Stormwind are different. Similar allies, with some more. One owned UC the other did not.