Am I the only one that think ending faction conflict was a bad idea?

Lore Story Forum
143

Except he wasnt winning? The story had show quite clearly(both ingame and in books) Garrosh liked flashy and lightning strike wins. The Alliance(even with its losses) managed to bog him down and turn what should have been decisive wins into protracted wars. Something thd brash Hellscream was always pretty bad at.

Oh I’m pretty right. Like one of the reasons for wanting a new faction war and having the Alliance be the aggressor is to right the proverbial moral ground. Personally, if the Horde wants a faction war so bad let them start it again. I think that is one of the big difference between the Alliance/Horde. It can focus on other heroics that dont neccesarily mean dealing with the Horde and when the Horde does that, it feels to its players like its Alliance lite.

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There is no righting the moral ground between the factions. The horde is soo thoroughly tainted and making the alliance the aggressors is so out of character at this point, all that’ll do is just piss off people even more

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145

That’s the crux of the issue. The appetite has not been there from the creative side of the table. Their vision of The Horde is utterly distinct from what someone who invested in WC3 through pre-Cata Horde fell in love with. As has been endlessly discussed, those hard-line elements have been made to deliberately fight the heroic elements to the death. Twice! Because when people say “we’re sick of being villain-batted” what they hear is “we want to be heroic heroes of justice like The Alliance!”

He does not. Baine has only ever been written to appeal to Alliance players since MoP. Same issue with Calia. Potentially growing into the same issue with Lilian Voss. I have seen what an attempt to rehabilitate Baine’s image into something less pathetic looks like, and it was very confusing: he got real racist about some centaur halfway across the world and nearly got himself killed over it.

At the end of the day, cynicism aside, I will repeat that Metzen is the last drop of grace I’m willing to extend WoW. If he can’t fix The Horde, it is donezos. Overs. Kaputified. For me, at least.

That also gets to the heart of what I was outlining above. Thrall’s Horde had a seat at the table for everyone. We’ve since been told (again: twice) that only one camp gets a seat while the others need to be expunged. If The Horde were the only faction in the game, that might be okay, but we already have The Alliance.

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146

I don’t have trouble seeing it. Garrosh wasn’t great in Cata, but that could have been just his rocky start before he matured into the position. After all, Varian wasn’t great in Cata either, and they fixed him. And the “didn’t get the memo” scene provides a clue as to how they could have shown Garrosh to be learning and growing.

But it’s all speculation, of course, so we’re just left with our own impressions as to what’s more likely.

There might be less of it. Or at least I’d be able to say “Yeah, Blizzard does the same crap to both sides, so what else is new?”

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147

No the Horde was winning, at least what is seen in game. I think your issue here is a case of looking at it to much like a binary. Winning doesn’t have to mean complete and total victory with the other side destroyed.

The Horde gained territories and destroyed Alliance holdings. At the time MoP started the Horde was ahead, having gained considerable ground. Yes, it was protracted. But the Horde was overall winning. And MoP was completely stalemates until the rebellion turned on Garrosh.

The Horde was winning, just not a total victory.

That presupposes that it needs to be righted. Tit for tat, 1 for 1 is BAD story telling. It is also bad in RL. The word repentance carries the meaning of changing, turning away from the bad, correcting one’s life. That is all that is really needed to address the wrongs of the nation. The Horde just needs to show a desire to fix the wrongs that can be and change the path they were on. There is no need to try and create some kind moral equivalence. That just brings everyone down.

You know the Horde players have zero say, right? Blizzard decides what happens.

I really don’t agree with that statement. I am 100% sure he was never meant to appeal to the Alliance. That it not remotely something they would do.

I think he was supposed to appeal to those who wanted the ‘noble savage’ trope. He was supposed to be the wise, peaceful leader that balanced the warmongers. Which is not far off from how Cairne was used, even in WC3. They have just never let him bring out the bull.

That does make some sense for him as a character. Letting the bull side out is ultimately what got Cairne killed. It make sense that he would try to hold that side of himself back. But I think them giving him a chance to let that side out could go a long ways to bringing back the old school Tauren feel back. The gentle and peaceful people until they are pushed to far.

While I hate the idea of pinning all your hopes on a single person, I understand. And do not fault you for that feeling.

I agree that right up to what they actually put in Cata that was a path they could have taken.

The missed memo would seem to indicate it was even a possible path they discussed before. But Cata unambiguously laid the blame on Garrosh for the war and all the other problems in the Horde. Blizzard set the path for him with Cata. There is a reason those Stonetalon quests felt so out of place.

MoP did not redirect Garrosh arc. That arc was set in Cata.

Kind of like how there are Horde players screaming that only the Alliance ever gets the spotlight? I have seen some players claim Cata of all things was an Alliance expac. There will always be a ‘that doesn’t count’ or it was only because ‘other faction’ did it first or it was ‘justified.’

Want another example? Look at any discussion about the Purge of Dalaran.

There is no world where another faction war stops the scorekeeping regardless of who the aggressor was.

148

The main problem with the alliance being the aggressors? Especially after BfA? They would be totally justified in their actions if it came to it.

It just can’t work properly, you’d have one side justified in trying to end the horde and the horde and its fanbase feeling like they’re being punished. Again.

It just isn’t going to work. I personally think we should let any faction tensions go back to being a background thing to justify why BGs and PvP is still a thing ingame. It’s the only way to do it. In my opinion anyway

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149

Except the Alliance repelled the Horde’s advance and attempts to ally with the Shatterspear troll in Darkshore. The questing in Ashenvale was still a stalement. And the even in Stonetalon, while tragic only resolved to harden the night elves further.

Then there is the biggest proof Garrosh’s war was going no where, the Barrens. How can anyone say the Horde was winning when they couldnt even keep their backdoor secure from the Alliance.

So yeah, the Horde gained territories(arguably more so then the Alliance) but then the Alliance did the same(and arguably the more strategic one considering it gave them the an opening at the Horde heartlands and gave night elves breathing room) and every major advance into Alliance’s homefront was dead in its tracks.

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Didn’t the Kaldorei basically wipe out one of the Shatterspear villages? I remember doing the quest and riding atop one of the Ancients and attacking one of their villages and killing a bunch of them

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Might be more correct to say he has only ever been shown to appeal to Alliance players. Baine’s “I only show up when there needs to be a Horde perspective sympathetic to Team Blue” didn’t begin until … Before the Storm, I reckon.

That isn’t what Tauren are (or were). That is part of their gradual cultural disintegration that has been a pretty reasonable parallel to the same problem with the Night Elves. Baine is basically an avatar of the game’s having forgotten their own race’s cultures. He is only ever wheeled out to be “the good Horde.” Which means having moments where his line in the sand is … checks notes … Jaina Proudmoore.

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152

Stopping/stalling some advances doesn’t change the fact there were a lot that were not stopped.

Redridge, Darkshore, Ashenvale all Alliance back doors.

Which was largely cut off with the fall of Theramore. There is a reason SoO was not the Alliance assaulting from the Barrens.

See, again I think you are back to seeing things only in a binary. If it doesn’t completely take all the territory you think it failed. All those advances did progress into Alliance territory. Maybe not as deep as Garrosh wanted, but still into.

Look, even just from the lore point, the Alliance was not in any immediate danger of collapsing. The Horde was not about to destroy the Alliance. That is all true. But the Horde gained significantly more in the war, and hurt the Alliance significantly more. At the end of Cata the Horde was better off than the Alliance. In other words, winning.

That is how they were presented in WC3. That is how they were presented in Vanilla.

They were strong warriors, that only fought when they had to.

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No. The Great Hunt has been practically erased as a foundation of their culture. It has been supplanted by [hippy druid trope], and even then typically as guest stars in a Night Elf slanted Cenarion Circle. I’m not calling them warmongers, but they were never doormats. Even their introduction was framed around a war for survival.

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154

I will never understand why nobody else thinks of his scene with Sylvanas in Silverpine.

She’s using plague bombs, she’s using Val’kyr to raise dead Alliance soldiers to serve her, and Garrosh is the first one to compare her to the Lich King, say her actions are dishonorable, and to watch her clever bish-mouth.

Blizz can talk about a “missed memo” all they want. I don’t play the game with their memos in mind. If what I’m shown is a more reasonable Garrosh, then what I have is a more reasonable Garrosh. If the only in-game evidence I’m given to contradict this is him sending planes off to attack Alliance ships as we enter Twilight Highlands, then frankly that doesn’t really change matters; this guy once wanted to split his fighting forces not only between fighting the Lich King and the Alliance, but the Alliance on multiple fronts. Strategic errors are expected from him.

With his depiction in Wrath, sure. But Cata?

I dunno. Other than Twilight Highlands, I can’t think of many desicions from Garrosh within the game that didn’t make logical sense.

Taking Ashenvale and Darkshore pens in the night elves, taking an enemy force off the board, which becomes his most sound strategic decision when the alternative is being attacked fom there and Southern Barrens, effectively penning the Horde in.

Pushing Sylvanas to get a port for her people (or more realistically, a larger one) should never have been an issue, because the Forsaken should have already had one.

I would definitely say that reasonable, logical decision-making is a far cry from the “attack all enemies everywhere at all times, just for the vibes” Garrosh of Wrath.

By the time he ate the Heart’s magic juice, Vol’jin already had gathered a rebellion and started working with the Alliance (with great tension, of course) to sabotage Garrosh’s resupply efforts in the Barrens. His Horde wasn’t winning any more, and had faced their first obstacles that couldn’t be easily overrun. And whenever Garrosh faced an obstacle in MoP, his response was to go full toddler temper tantrum with a full gas can in one hand and a blowtorch in the other.

(Cynical Alynsa incoming)

And by that time, the devs had already decided that GarryOrc would be the cause of WoD, talking those orcs into being exactly as evil as the orcs of the Old Horde but without the demon juice excuse. They had already made it canon in their eyes that when push comes to shove, orcs as a race will go full evil when given an opportunity, so when he’s being pushed and he’s being shoved, why wouldn’t good old GarryOrc drink some void juice? Orcs just do whatever evil is in front of them, right?

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155

Honestly War Mode and Sharding killed the faction conflict.

Back when you and your guild could have a reputation. If you were honorable you’d generally get a pass from other players in the know. If you were however cruel malcontent that started fights wherever you went you’d be dealt with accordingly. There were guilds and even unique players nobody would get the back of because they had a bad reputation.

This led to fascinating ludonarrative gameplay about the faction war which made it morally gray by sheer virtue of human nature. Both sides waged war but some with a code of ethics and others with relentless cruelty.

Now though I fight utter randoms in WPvP. Most of them strangers I’ve never met before and will never meet again. That sense of honor culture has completely evaporated.

WPvP is now a mini game it’s outright dumb to participate in without a team. As opposed to just a more hostile world you had to deal with.

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156

While ironically, also the single best way to solo level in the early levels!!

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Redridge were not being attacked by the Horde. They were attacked by Blackrock orcs but were not aligned with Garrosh until the book.

Darkshore was a relatively permanent defeat with the destruction of the Shatterspear.

And Ashenvale happens to be a two way door to either factions, hence its constant contested status.

Except we know as per the Tides of War and Escalation patch that, no the Alliance was not cut off and Northwatch effectively became the Alliance base and the Barrens continued to be contested.

158

Honestly, blizzard cannot write themselves a satisfying faction war. Horde always gets villain batted into “Orphancrusher who likes to commit genocide.” Alliance becomes Stupid Good with “Captain boy scout who likes to self sabotage.”

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I don’t really mind that there isn’t a clear winner because nobody ever really wins in war. Honestly, I find it completely unrealistic that all these world leaders are holding hands and coming up with sensible solutions to their issues. When has that realistically happened in real life? There needs to be more petty vindictive and power hungry leaders on both sides, our faction leaders should be more flawed. The fans will yell and scream about it, but you can bet they will be more tuned into the story then they were during Dragonflight or shadowlands. The best fantasy books I have read over the years the main characters are deeply flawed and screwed up individuals but also written in a way you can have some empathy for or even like a bit., WoW just can’t seem to nail this down though in their writing.

160

Bfa should not have happened. Literally just a worse repeat of MOP. It was just an excuse by Blizzard to remove the Horde from the story by 100%. Now we will never see the factions matter again and all screentime will go straight to the grand heroes of the Alliance. The Horde is dead.

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The alliance was literally standing in the Barrens. Sylvanas was much closer to winning then Garrosh could ever hope for.

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May I gently suggest that you, as a True Blue Team Blue player, may not have the best perspective on whether Garrosh could have worked as a flawed yet decisive leader? You see injuries to the Alliance and assume that was inevitably going to lead to his downfall. But they might have been put there just to stoke division between the factions, which was an admitted goal in Cata.

At the very least, the devs left themselves an “out” in Cata where they could change course with the story. MoP was where it solidified.

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