Am I the only one that think ending faction conflict was a bad idea?

Lore Story Forum
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To rebuild the foundation, you have to remove the old one completely. I was gonna include that in the analogy; you’d need to remove the Horde completely and build a new faction in its place.

Because new characters are still existing on the foundation of those past stories. Mer’ingu the actually cool, brand new orc who is gonna take the reigns of the Horde and drive it in a new direction? Still the same broken foundation. Players are going to look at this as yet another pivot in the Horde identity, half-expecting the entire time that Mer’ingu turns out to really hate the night elves or something. And even when Mer’ingu doesn’t go genocide because they’re actually good, Mer’i still has to either pretend the past doesn’t exist and never mention it, or mention the past. How much the Horde has been through, and how this time it’s different.

But that past is still there regardless. Now the question is what Mer’i was doing when the Horde was doing a genocide, or the other genocide.

And worse; all you’ve done by introducing new characters, in a game with limited spotlight for major NPCs overall, is remix a different problem Horde players have long had; our major NPCs either get killed off or vanish from the narrative. Now it’s to make room for the new hotness. Now it’s for Calia.

Because it isn’t that we don’t get new characters. We do, all the time!! We got AU girl-Thrall Geya’rah, who really should just be AU girl-Garrosh with how she acts. We get Calia.

… Ok, that’s being disingenuous, listing the least-well recived ones. I’ll go again.

We do get new characters. We got Mayla and Thalyssra (don’t mention the bulk of their stories were told before they got tacked on to the Horde, don’t mention that). We get Talanji. And these characters, though they’ve faded into the background and novels since BfA ended, are still relatively well-recieved.

But they’re also a part of the frustration. Because now Thalyssra joined up just in time for the nightborne to massacre their cousins the night elves. Mayla is Baine’s sidekick. Talanji, praise Yogg-Saron, has been allowed to remain largely unsullied.

But they also exist in the unstable framework the Horde now exists in. They’re all part of this mysterious, ambiguous Horde Council that allegedly exists, unseen in the narrative since shortly after it began. Them and their cool stories are reminders that our old heroes are dead and needed to be replaced. So the Horde could learn a mystery lesson that never got explained.

And already, Horde players are looking to see which of these new characters will be the next Big Evil, because Blizzard has taught us to do that. Geya’rah is a popular choice, but my money’s on Talanji going after her promised revenge against Jaina and being painted as a villain for it.

Because that has become the foundation. That’s the house said foundation is built upon.

Why should I, why should Kagehiro, why should Zuleika, why should Pellex blindly trust that we’re out of that era of Horde stories? Because Blizzard said we are?

They said that after MoP too, and we got WoD and “all orcs not from the Frostwolves just like following genocidal leaders.”

They said that after Dragonflight (four years too late, guys), but we still get to see Geya’rah and Turalyon having their aggro game of oneupsmanship, with Geya’rah being the instigator. And we’re still going out to kill the former leader of the goblins next patch (which again I’m fine with, but I don’t discount the way this disheartens others and I totally get it).

Why should I believe that we’re done playing the “villains or ignored” game with the Horde when the best they can do is offer up a patch for goblins, with the promise that in Midnight, the blood elves get so overwhelmed by the Void that they need to form a neutral elf coalition of all the every elf, and the best I can hope for in a Horde story is about how badly the Horde race needs the Alliance?

And how much of this becomes too much? How much further damage will it take for people to accept that it’s beyond repair?

…

I’m using a lot of “you” words here, and I just want to be very clear; I’m venting. Not aimed at you, Glow Gnome, Mer(fancy I)ngue. Your posts aren’t somethung upsetting me or that I find to be fundamentally wrong or anything like that. We have different perspectives, and that is absolutely fine.

I’m venting because I am a Horde main who swapped to the Alliance after Dragonflight because the Horde story, and the lack of a Horde story, made me finally too sick in the heart to play my near-twenty year old hunter (Alynsa), because even looking at Orgrimmar or Horde characters reminds me of the aspects of this game that I hate the most because of its mistreatment and abuse.

I am disgruntled and angry and hurt and distrustful when it comes to the Horde, because fourteen years can do that.

But it isn’t your fault, and I hope this doesn’t come across as me blaming you!!

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Anytime they have made mistakes in the past they have been confronted with this re-earning trust. And this would be the same. Players would rightly worry about that for a while. But over time, that trust could be earned back. At least for most players.

Kind of like Thrall did? Yes, the past would have to be mentioned. But it doesn’t have to define things going foreward.

He was a kid. Problem solved.

Or he was on MU Draenor helping out the people there and was not even aware.

Or he refused the orders and was thrown in prison, getting freed afterward.

Or… Lots of potential was not part of it situations.

That is kind of true across the board for both factions. That is why only a few get highlighted.

And, looking at the TWW narrative leaning into the next generation taking over so hard it is likely that we are going to see most of the old characters get replaced.

Yes, give them the spotlight.

I should be clear, I did not mean New characters had to be completely fresh never seen before characters, just new leaders that we have not seen much of.

And if they never do? I fully get the once bitten, twice shy. Doubled. I feel it also (from both Horde and Alliance perspectives). I am not saying to ignore the past. And maybe Blizzard will screw up and repeat the stupid. Heck, there are players that want them to. But it is not unreasonable to think there is a chance they have learned and can do better.

I consider it repairable. That doesn’t promise that Blizzard will repair it. Only that they can. And there is some hope they will.

You shouldn’t blindly trust. But I also think you shouldn’t just throw up your hands and say it wont happen. Neither way is guaranteed.

Didn’t take it personally. But thanks for saying. :smiley:

While there are people who absolutely come across that way, you don’t.

And on the flip, I get where you are coming from. I do understand. And I am not saying you are bad for feeling the way you do. It is fully understandable, and you are not wrong to feel that way. I probably just have a bit more hope than you do. :wink:

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Screw that, you want a War so bad, let the Horde start it, and even if it did commit attrocities its not going to change the fact the Horde has commited, 3-4 genocides, its not going to even some proverbial moral scale. Personally, I don’t want the Alliance to deal with more bull, I would rather it focused on things that matter to it. The Alliance doesn’t need the Horde to function(nor to lead to new stories for it) and I would argue it is better placed as being the Overwatch of Warcraft, flawed but always striving to make the world better.

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There’s a major difference between Thrall talking about the old Horde and a new character talking about the past of the still-existing, present-day Horde.

The old Horde ended. Thrall is talking about a seperate-but-related organization, with his own version founded on not repeating those mistakes.

A new character isn’t talking about a past organization. They’re talking about Thrall’s Horde, which not only did repeat those mistakes of the past, but outdid them. One sacking of Stormwind doesn’t stack up to a whole Theramore and Teldrassil.

A new character isn’t talking about an organization that died when he was a child. He’s talking about the people around him right then and there, and the government they live under.

… What are you talking about? Thrall and Jaina aren’t new. Alleria isn’t new. Turalyon isn’t new. These are all characters relevant right now and from the RTS games.

Anduin and Baine qualify as the next generation, but it’s pretty hard to really talk about them as new NPCs when they’ve both been in the game since Vanilla.

It took sylvanas fourteen years to go full genocide. “Never do” is a wait of at least that long, because again, there’s history here, there’s precedent here. This isn’t once bitten, twice shy. It’s not double that.

This is the only story we have gotten for fifteen years, and it still continues in small doses.

Garrosh and Sylvanas are the big examples.

For each of them, we have half a dozen Nazgrims, and I was literally going to start listing all the small pointless deaths and betrayals that accomanied them, but why bother? You’ve seen the lst of names.

This reads to me like this kinda scenario.

Imagine I meet someone new and they punch me in the face.

I see them again a week later, and they kick me in the stomach.

We both end up at the grocery store a month later, and they tackle me into the frozen foods.

I see them a year later. I turn to walk away. You ask why. I explain the past I’ve had with this person.

“You shouldn’t trust that they’ll just assault you again, maybe they won’t anymore?”

I just don’t see a way at all. Not as any recognizable version of Thrall’s Horde (which, to be fair, is pretty unrecognizable). Not as anything even resembling the Horde I selected forever ago.

(insert yadda yadda yadda, Alliance too, I’ve made clear their situation is just as bad just a different flavor of bad)

New characters don’t fix those systemic problems. New characters don’t unmake the last two wars the Horde started and the Alliance (with the Horde) finished. New stories don’t overwrite WoD’s depiction of orcs. New stories don’t undo Sylvanas flying off because were nothing and she doesn’t need us anymore, Vol’jin dying a chump’s death, Cairne’s off-screen book death, Thrall spending over a decade leaving and coming back, Bairne sitting like a trashbag in a corner of Oribos, yadda yadda yadda.

New stories and characters don’t undo the past. And if the lore matters, then the past matters.

Those of us saying the Horde is irrepairably broken are doing so because the lore matters to us. So that past matters.

No new story or character can change that.

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Honestly, the only W that we had was ironically the L that was applied to us through the travesty of ‘The Purge of Dalaran’ — Since it put us in the victim position & the Alliance more-so in the controversial one … or at least it WAS — Until they retconned it in Chronicles volume 4 :unamused:

“Oh no no, it was totes the Blood elves, and by extension the entirety of the Horde’s fault — The Alliance was completely justified in their actions & even the Horde agree. Absolutely.”

:roll_eyes: Honestly, I’m not at all surprised that many Horde players have lost pride in their faction or simply just started playing another game. lol

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It is different. But not that different…

And much of Thrall’s new Horde was people who were members of the old Horde.

Again, you are right it is different. But I don’t think ‘My generation will do better than the last’ is so significantly different than what Thrall was doing as to be a problem.

I was mostly referring to the themes we deal with the Earthen on. There is some of it in the Arathi. I am not saying they have retired all of the old guard. But the themes combined with the fact that we are seeing retirements stands out to me.

But, it has begun. Tyrande and Malfurion retired. Magni is clearly retired. And Dagran is clearly being set up to take spotlight.

My personal guess is that by the end of the Saga most of the old guard will be gone, retired or dead.

Well, sure. But also there wasn’t that long between faction wars. So, I don’t think it will take 14 years to get a feel if they are going to do that again.

And I think how they resolve the current Saga will tell us a LOT about how they see the world setting up. Heck, it is entirely possible that the Saga ends with Azeroth waking and the whole world changing. Horde vs Alliance might be less of a thing.

To be more in line with what I mean:
Imagine that scenario, but at that year later point the person has also started counselling for anger management, joined AA, and has stopped drinking. And when you see them they acknowledge you and take a step back.

Blizzard has shown a change in priorities. The have stepped back form the aggressive relationship between the factions. There is even a cinematic talking about moving past mistakes.

Will it hold out? Maybe. There is some hope. You wouldn’t completely drop your guard with them. You would still be careful. But, there is hope things will get better. That example person’s violent past should make you careful, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t change. Especially when there is some indication they are trying.

As a side point. If you are at the walk away stage with the game. I am not telling you not to. If you aren’t happy, you should find a game that makes you happy. I just think there is still hope for this one. I don’t fault you if you don’t.

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And if Thrall’s generation actually had been different from the past generation, I might agree with you.

Well, I guess his generation was different. Old Horde pretty much got defeated before they could really do all that much beside temporarily holding one city. Thrall’s Horde certainly massively outperformed them.

Tyrande and Malfurion retired from leadership, sure, but there isn’t a new guard there. They literally left leadership of the night elves to Shandris, also from the RTS.

Dagran is a new character, sure, but if anything Moira is being set up to be center stage for dwarf stuff; another Vanilla-era character.

The old main NPCs might be leaving, who knows. But it’s not like these replacements are brand new. They have twenty years of IRL history. Dagran is the only new one here.

The thing is, I’m not worried about another faction war. Geya’rah or Talanji, or heck maybe someone else entirely, doesn’t need a faction war to go full evil. To go full genocide.

Benedictus didn’t go all Deathwing Fan Club because of a faction war. Fandrel either.

I’m more worried about that type of situation. Because a whole faction war is just not likely to happen again (see: BfA’s response, MoP’s response, specifically the faction war aspects). But we have plenty of examples of former high-profile characters just being evil now, and being killed.

I’m much more worried about a “fun and engaging story, featuring the traitor Geya’rah and the mag’har who followed her to attack both Alliance and Horde because reasons!!” Gallywix. Kael’thas. I could go on, but I’m exhausted.

Yeah, but see, Blizzard hasn’t taken a step back from Horde player perspectives.

The issue is our leaders (current or former) are made villains, or we’re ignored in the narrative.

Post-BfA, we were ignored. Now we’re getting noticed and Gallywix, former leader, is a villain we face.

It might not be another tackle into the frozen foods, but the allegedly former-angry former-drunk guy still greeted me with a slap.

See, I would believe that, but.

Turalyon and Geya’rah. Isle of Dorn. Aggressive relationship.

You say they’ve shown a change in priorities, but all I’m seeing is the early tensions between two leaders of opposing factions, a “Horde-centric” patch that continues an unfun trend, and a lot of lip service I’ve heard before and many times.

The most I expect is post-Worldsoul Sega (Genesis), we’ll see more largely faction-agnostic content like Dragonflight breaking up the latest Cosmic Farce threat, which will generally lean more Alliance-oriented because the Horde has largely fewer ties to the Cosmic Forces. And scattered within this will be small reminders that while Anduin likes his new father figure Thrall (refereance to another thread) and Jaina and Thrall get along, the two factions still exist and do not like each other.

At least until they come up with a way to turn Talanji’s desire for vengeance against Jaina into a brand new Horde teaching moment.

Oh no, I’m not.

Ok, so, I do most of my best arguing and yelling when it’s about the Horde or Alliance and how we all deserve better. And that is probably a good percentage of my lore interest, maybe about 50% if I’m being totally honest.

But old gods? Cosmo Farces (I just really do not like that term is all)? The general hodge-podge mythology of the world? That’s the other 50%.

And lore alone is only about half of what I enjoy. The moment-to-moment gameplay, even at my super-casual, pretty-terrible level is some of the most fun video game play I’ve ever felt.

And then there’s the sensory experience!! Even when the story is so utterly bad that I cannot invest in anything, even when my main class (Hunter before) is so bad that I’m not enjoying the gameplay (mostly just for a patch), you can still find me flying around, usually in older content, with my headphones on and the ambient music blasting, just enjoying the vibes (and probably stopping to fish). Flying around and just looking and listening no lie makes up a full third of my game time.

So even when the whole situation with the Horde makes my heart so sick that I cannot even log on Alynsa without feeling like I’m mourning a near-20 year relationship, I have a whole other Alliance, filled with toons ready for Rock Dorf Island, that I can jump over to and have a good time.

I just wish my nineteen and a half year long relationship didn’t need to be so soured, just so someone could have a cool desktop wallpaper (Hi Cursewords) of a tree burning down. And a bunch of other things.

My heart belongs to the Horde, but my soul belongs to Azeroth!!

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In theory, I’m exactly who the faction conflict is for.

I’m a PvPer and I love RPing “typical” characters for their setting. I mained a night elf sentinel and an orc grunt for a decade plus, for heaven’s sake.

But I’m going to be honest. Shadowlands just kicked that right out of me. Like, if you need a microcosm of why the faction conflict is a problem in the game and will never be handled gracefully, the “triumphant” night elf conclusion is pretty much a perfect example. Elune giving Tyrande power only to suddenly be like “oh, wait, you’re going to use it to ACTUALLY fight back? Nah, changed my mind” out of nowhere because it didn’t work for the story. After Tyrande being juiced up and us being told it was a BIG DEAL for a year or so.

And I get it. Of course between 5-25 adventurers had to confront Sylvanas for her dastardly ways. And of course it had to work for both sides. But it was just tedious. And honestly? I’ve had enough rugs getting pulled out from under me, suddenly turned into a mustache twirling goon for plot purposes, and generally being bludgeoned by the idiot ball to enable The Plot to work.

I’m good.

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I don’t know if I would call that fully aggressive. They are standing next to each other watching over the troops. They commentary felt more like a kind of a postering to me. In essence the trope where two characters decide they are not going to like each other, but have a grudging respect. Then later become close friends. It actually kind of reminded me of The Falcon and Winter Soldier. I really feel like they are setting them up to be friends by the time this is all over. Will have to wait and see if I am right.

Either way, Geya’rah is actually a good example of them changing their approach. Look at the short story. It was her being the good one. The narrative put her in the right and with the military advantage. Then it had her choose to stand down and call the truce. They showed her, the Horde character, not just being in the right, but also taking the extra step towards peace. She chose peace even when she would have been justified in winning the fight. And they were really no subtle in showing her in the right. And made it clear she was going to win if she hadn’t stopped it.

Good to hear you are still having fun. I just saw the walk away in your example and wasn’t sure if that was a double meaning or not. Just wanted to make sure you didn’t think I was pressuring to just suck it up and keep playing if you were not happy. :slight_smile:

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I agree that a Sha themed raid would probably have taken the place of SoO (and man, does that ever sound cool!). But I am not sure Garrosh would have been deposed if there was no need for a raid to do it. We know that the devs originally planned for him to grow into the warchief role and later changed their minds to make him a villain instead. Without the need to set up an excuse for both factions to raid Orgrimmar, I think they would have stuck to their original plan and had him eventually mature into a successful warchief.

Also, if you want an example of the kind of scorekeeping that I find intensely tiresome and would love to have reduced, look no further than Zerde’s post. Which I’m ignoring because I’m not bored enough to spar with him tonight.

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I’d agree with that (which to me sounds like an aggressive relationship, but we can disagree about the label).

But begrudging respect? I did not get that from them at all. Geya’rah was noted as unimpressed by the Alliance overall.

I’ll admit, I completely missed this story. From what I read, she followed the council of Eitrigg, Thrall and Aggra to not fight, she didn’t? I know my brief description sounds dismissive, but it’s not intended. I’ll give that the credit it’s due. Fair enough. I’m gonna try and hunt it down and read it now.

However.

I also recall Garrosh’s Cataclysm quests, which depicted him as being more reasonable than his Wrath appearances, only for MoP to happen and make him take all the extra-aggro pills.

So grains of salt and all.

Oh no, the only times ever that I use double-talk is for funnies!! Otherwise, I’m just very straightforward.

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Just want to highlight here, and draw a parallel with Sylvanas in Shadowlands, because I feel like it pretty accurately gets to the heart of the fatigue and mishandling that informs a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Horde is.

Sylvanas will come back some day, but it isn’t Sylvanas. The character people loved was The Banshee Queen—not Zovaal’s genocidal dupe, not Ranger-General Undead Sylvanas. When that character returns and is patient and kind and searching for her place within The Forsaken and forgiveness from those she wronged, you are not bringing back a beloved character, but parading out a mockery of the character people were so heavily invested in.

Same goes for the Horde. The edge, the Victory or Deaths!, the mad science, the Voodoo, the proud warrior-hunter Tauren culture Blizzard forgot exists? Those are all facets of the Horde’s identity. So is the spiritualism, honor, loyalty, and forbearance. The tension and interplay between those disparate perspectives is the spice in the soup. You cannot build a new Horde by excising pieces of itself and still serve the same people who invested in that Horde. This is why the Councils and mea culpas and therapy sessions get so ruthlessly mocked around here (Red Alliance).

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We discussed/are discussing in another thread time travel, character returns and Illidan, and I feel this is a great counterpoint to something I said there that is worth bringing up here.

Contrast a probable Sylvanas return with Illidan’s return.

Illidan’s Legion return and retcon worked because it didn’t make a brand new Illidan; it returned the version of WCIII people remembered (well, sorta, but I’m not getting into that) and retconned the very strange depiction of Illidan prior.

The person we meet when Sylvanas returns is definitively not the Sylvanas who led the Forsaken. This is an entirely different person because of the means used to “clean up her crimes.” The other half of her soul, Ranger-General of Quel’Thelas, never met the Forsaken, never led them, certainly never joined the Horde. And we’re getting some hybrid of that version, and the familiar version who herself was already unrecognizable when she decided to (nevah) serve Arthas’s creator (like wtf to that whole thing). So whoever she is, she isn’t “our” (the Forsaken’s and the Horde’s) Sylvanas.

Illidan returning is the return of an important figure in night elf lore.

Sylvanas returning is not the return of an important figure in high/blood/void elf lore, not the return of an important figure in Forsaken lore, but some fusion restaurant version of both that becomes kinda neither.

Sylvanas, much like the Horde (Kagehiro puts it better) has lost her identity now, and isn’t any version of the character who anyone fell in love with.

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Sylvanas is still the same so I am not worried. She represents her people like she always did.

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I like the idea that we never really knew Sylvanas that well at all.

It reminds me of the things that Jaina and others have said about her: “she isn’t the hero she was anymore” like, everyone looks at her as a shadow or a shell of something else. Alleria even makes a comment about a creature masquerading in her sisters body.

When Sylvanas returns, she won’t be what she was. I am OK with it because it makes sense to me.

I don’t think her time in the Maw has softened all her edges. I could still see her muttering “fools!” when troops don’t listen to her and get themselves killed - like in the War of Thorns. She tells her forces to stand back, but they charge in and die anyway.

If she does come back, she will be different. People will say she isn’t what she once was - meanwhile, people saying that about her has been a part of her character for years, just in a different context.