The Light is a pure source of good no doubt but it’s the people who use it poorly that’s the problem. It seems like that’s not only a mortal problem but also a Naaru/Divine problem as well. It could be agrued that Turalyon is straying from the Light because he followed a bad Naaru who twisted the Light’s principles for selfish ends, in that way he’s just like his corrupted Naaru leader.
The Light is Holy but some people who use it are not, if you get my drift.
There’s a difference between what Sylvanas did - trying to break a dying woman into giving up hope, and later trying to brainwash an undead man into murdering his beloved family… and what Alleria did - painfully extract information about Sylvanas from someone’s mind.
Having said that, I’m not fully on board with what Alleria did either and agree with you, @Renautus, that it doesn’t necessarily mean the ends justify the means.
Then let me introduce you to Alleria Windrunner first:
Alleria Windrunner is a living legend, she fought against every enemy of Quel’Thalas in the first place and because the General was simply too BORING for her, she rather went to the Farstriders and defended the borders of Quel’Thalas if necessary also outside of Quel’Thalas, where it is just necessary.
She was even so feared that Zul’Jin avoided the fight with her and ran away whenever his scouts reported that she was coming, just a little as a back story.
Well, Alleria was by her type a “first end the threat, then inquire”, in other words, if you are her friend all is well, if you are her enemy, 99% of the time you are dead and the few survivors are tortured if necessary to get the information she needs and wants.
The orcs killing her parents and her little brother awakened this nefarious and absolutely destructive side in her, so destructive in fact that she began - as Turalyon put it - not to fight well. She was so offensive that she did not pay attention to the deffensive and was so fearsome that most of the orcs whimpered for mercy, which did not help them. The ones who reached the camps were so overfed that they were much closer to death than to life, and then it was the lucky few.
But the same character emerges again and again, a character who believes that every means counts, as long as the goal is reached.
This ultimately led Alleria to the void, it is still the same character trait, the end justifies the means, it was always their character and stands out throughout her story.
She is very protective but only towards those she feels obligated to. For example, she didn’t care what those at the court in Silvermoon thought of her, when they underestimated the threat of the trolls, Alleria simply threw troll skulls at Anasterian’s feet and therefore ridiculed the nobles for their naivety.
This character is a Farstrider, she is a Hunter in every sense of the word, and even Sylvanas admits that there has never been a better one. Her principle is the protection of her people and if she have to beat the crape out of you, be certain, alleria would do it without a second though.
Thats Alleria Windrunner.
Now, Turalyon:
Turalyon is a paladin with strong conflicted inner thoughts, one the one side is his peaceseeking and on the other side is his strong sense for justice. For 95% of the second war he felt absolutely useless and although he was a good fighter and a good commander, he was not really a paladin, in fact he could not really use the light because of his inner doubts and struggles.
It was because the teaching of the light says that everything is connected in the light, is one in the light, he didn’t understand the anger of the orcs, he didn’t understand this bloodlust, he couldn’t handle it and he also had inner doubts about his paladin brothers as he watched them in their righteous anger.
The conflicts in his inner life fermented until he found clarity for himself, orcs simply do not belong to those who carry the light in them, who are united with it (neither do trolls, by the way, as we learned later), and also this central trait runs through his views and also appearances.
Because in his principles, the protection of the innocent depends on whether one has a bond with the light, whether one belongs to this “family” that is one in the light (according to his belief, this is every soul…except for those who are not, which he himself decides are not, demons, trolls, orcs, a few examples, his enemys) he also did not hesitate to “torture” an orc with a sin.
His strong sense of justice depends on this CORE principle, who is one in the light, who is not, on it is based his whole foundation.
You could see this in his reaction to Faol Alonsus when he met him again as undead.
And also when he confronted Liadrin in Arathi, this principle is the core of his faith and his whole striving for righteous justice is closely connected with it.
“That we don’t become like Sylvanas”, ohhh, that would mean they kill all the horde refugees except the ones with information and torture the crap out of them instead of giving them food and telling them where they are safe.
Ah ok gotcha, torture is completely fine but the slaughtering is were you draw the line.
Then why don’t you actually hate Sylvanas and all the undead, they did it all the time?
You misunderstood me : )
I was actually repeating Zerde’s stance.
Personally, I love the pragmatic approach of the Forsaken. Don’t believe for a second that I love things like that in real life; its off putting when posters can’t distinguish the difference.
I thinks its cool and great story telling; it reminded me a lot of the Adam’s Family with the humor aspect in all.
You know, the difference here is the amount of scale, alleria did this TO ONE Target because this one TARGET knew exactly what they want to know, it could be much worse, i mean, if alleria would have wanted, and sylvanas would do this 100%, she could torture the kids to torture the mother to get the information out of her.
The scale is the difference.
To say “Alleria und Turalyon are as bad as Sylvanas”…will lead nowhere and isn´t even a good argument either.
I completely understand why that is a factor. Torturing one person vrs one million people is a huge difference to some; on the other hand torturing one person is the same as torturing one million people to other.
See: Sinstones for in-game references.
This is an important argument in arguing about morality because the first one is the hardest, as the saying goes.
But it is not really a real argument in terms of Judging a Situation, you are also a murderer when you kill someone, but when you are responsible for the murder of thousands, you are a monster, a cold-blooded vile monster, and the deepest hole of hell would not be good enough for you. And you will punished even harder then the one person who kill …just one.
Its rare that I agree with you but you’re 100% right. In the real world you get judged on the severity of your crime, in the afterlife, well I don’t want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.
In this case we’re talking about both the current in-game universe and its afterlife. IMO its much easier to discuss than real world scenarios for the simple fact that we have specific perimeters, guidelines and precedence.
Do you know who had thier parents and brother murdered also and didn’t go on killing spree murdering orcs? Everyone else with the last name Windrunner…
As a fan of Sylvanas I know Alleria’s pain, but i also understand Alleria’s reckless destructiveness, it’s debatable if she did a heroic things or a reckless thing when she jumped through the portal to Outland, or abandoned her people for the Alliance. But I’m interested in this story and how it unfolds too.
He also says in that same statement that those were the principles that separated him from Sylvanas and her ilk, so if he sacrificed those principles because of some conflict he had, it means he is now standing on the same moral grounds as Sylvanas.
Vereesa was still in training at the time, Sylvanas was a Ranger General at the time and therefore could not leave QT, Alleria did not have such duties to perform.
Sylvanas didn’t agree with her sister’s choices that much is clear in Tides of Darkness I think…I’m hoping the new Sylvanas book will give more clarity on Sylvanas’s feelings about that. There’s a lot that was left to speculation.
Alleria want to deal with her own feelings alone, yeah, she chose actionismus about her own sadness and deep sorrow. …ofc Sylvanas would not LIKE her sister in such a situation alone…i mean, she agree with her actions but disagree with her dealing with the situation and that she want to deal with all of it herself.
I think there’s more to it than that. I really hope the book makes this canon and not just reading between the lines. But Alleria was supposed to be RG, it was her birthright but she left it for someone else, Sylvanas. That choice ultimately lead to Sylvanas’s death, she has a right to be bitter about that. I think Sylvanas has anger at Alleria and Veressa for leaving her to defend Quel’thalas alone. We never get to see Sylvanas’s PoV on that, just hints.
why bitter? i mean…her sister did the much more difficult job…she choose to be a farstrider above her birthright to defend Quel’Thalas on all places on the world…is this not rather noble…then a reason to be bitter?
Yes, you are right to some extent. Sylvanas actually took pride in the job and likely was given it based more on merit than a job owed. But with the job came more personal obligations. She couldn’t leave Quel’thalas like her sisters could and elves at that time were isolationists. She was in love with a human…which I’m sure put strain on her job, especially after Nathanos was exiled by Kael’thas (or at least Kael’thas tried but it seems he succeeded in the end when Quel’thalas pulled out of the Alliance.)
How is leading a whole army, a much easier job than being a Farstrider Ranger?
No, she received it because her sister refused it, choosing duty rather than getting a high prestige job which 99% of the time…consists of “doing nothing.”
Her mother was not pleased, but let her, so Sylvanas got it.
Where is that info?
I’m honestly interested if that’s part of a book. I’ve never heard that before.