It only makes sense for the “death by 1000 cuts” playstyle.
1 Like
Those arent swords and its not proof of anything. Those are cuts within the skull itself.
People really stretch and twist any little thing to try to support their claims.
Its not you fool. Look at the symbols for the skulls for Blood and Frost, they’re both drop symbols. Clearly the Blood one is a blood drop and Frost one is a water/ice drop.
Just google it and you’ll see.
Unholy DK was the dual wield spec originally anyways. You literally attacked faster with Unholy Presence.
3 Likes
You really want to call me a fool when you think 2 cuts on a skull are actually 2 swords that denote that Unholy should be DW?
I looked them up before you even told me to, they are cuts on the skull when it comes to unholy, frost has a gem or piece of ice that looks like a gem, and blood has a droplet of blood in a cavitation on the forehead.
Unholy was NOT the DW spec originally.
Also if you want to talk about attack speed being a sign of what spec should have been DW, its frost. Icy talons gave 20% attack speed, and then Improved Icy Talons gave another 20% + 5% haste on top of that. Thats more than what Unholy Presence gave. A lot more.
Not to mention Nerves of Cold Steel and Threat of Thassarian which was in the Frost tree as well, actual DW talents that created a completely different way that DW functioned in the entire game which made both weapons hit simultaneously with the listed weapon strike abilities.
So you literally attacked faster with Frost. 20% (Icy Talons) an additional 20% (from Improved Icy Talons) another 5% haste (again from Improved Icy Talons) while Unholy Presence just increased it by 15%.
You are just… wrong.
1 Like
Hey now, let’s all just calm down! We’re all friends here!
As best I recall, in the Wrath alpha, they actually didn’t have any specific DW’ing options. They had the ability to dual-wield, but no talents or bonuses for it. I believe it was “Jadefyre” (may be misremembering) that pushed hard to get a DW’ing build.
Personally, I don’t think DW really “fits” the class. The idea of being a heavily-armored juggernaut, and that previous lore always painted Runeblades as being vampiric and perhaps even sentient, I just don’t think it really meshes with the “class fantasy” of Death Knights.
But if you ARE going to keep DW’ing, I feel like Unholy thematically makes more sense. The idea of spreading diseases through small cuts, truly a “death by a thousand cuts”, seems a much better fit. To be honest, I don’t even understand what Frost is SUPPOSED to have in common with DW’ing. When you think of frost and snow, the LAST thing you associate with is “speed and precision”. If anything, it’s the polar opposite; slow and relentless.
The developers always wanted the DK to DW somehow but if they couldnt make it work they would scrap it. They made it work and it works well.
DK DW also isnt death from a thousand cuts. It doesnt do DW like others do DW. It basically turns the 2 weapons into 1 while taking advantage of 2 weapons for things like enchants and auto attacks.
Not to mention DK isnt and never was designed to be a juggernaut. It was to be a rampaging death machine.
Another thing is they had to take from other things to create the DK. WC3 unit, necromancer, Rune Master or something that was an early class that was being worked which DKs absorbed and the Warrior which we got Death Grip from since it they were working on a chain pull with them.
There is an NPC type in Storm Peaks that they probably got the idea from and the story behind them is tied to Arthas just not directly. DW frost warriors that are fighting the stormforged I think it is.
But either way Frost is the 1h DW strength based spec in the entire game that kind of acts like a 2h.
I’m, uh… not really sure any of that is correct.
Fury still has a 1hand option as well, so not the only Strength 1hand user. I don’t think it’s particular important either way (it’s not at though there are melee Int specs, or Str/Agi casters).
I’d agree that the Death Knight probably cannibalized some ideas from other units and such, but it’s still very much a Death Knight at its core. I don’t think dual-wielding really fits the Death Knight theme, because thematically, it just… doesn’t really gel, this heavy-plated gothic warrior, and “fast 1handers”.
Fury, my contrast, channels the fantasy of a Barbarian or Berzerker, a frenzy of wild attacks.
Plus, the source of all Death Knights’ powers come from their Runeblade. In the past, these were described as malevolent, vampiric blades that would corrupt and even whisper to their wielders. That doesn’t really seem terribly compatible with dual-wielding.
Plus, we have SO many DW’ing specs now, I don’t think the same need really exists like it used to, when only Rogues or Warriors could dual-wield (technically Hunters could, but we all know that was… problematic).
4 Likes
But its primary focus is 2h DW.
And its not that DK’s probably cannibalized some ideas of other units and such, they absolutely did. Its straight from the devs that they looked at other sources to build the DK.
Heavy-plated also doesnt matter when you are filled with unholy strength. Neither do 1h weapons, its magic.
Why not? I also dont know where this corrupt and whisper to the wielder comes into play because its not on the wiki about runeblades or even the death knight based rune blades is. Neither of those are talked about and the only runeweapon I know of that whispered and corrupted the wielder is Frostmourne because the LK was partially in it along with the armor.
Only less than 30% of strength based classes can DW, and a little over 10% of strength based classes DW based on 1h weapons.
Also, how you guys put this, makes it sound like Frost DK was primarily a 2h spec, then these other classes and specs came in and then the devs just decided one day “lets just make frost DW” when it wasnt the case at all.
So you really had rogue, fury and then enhancement. Frost DK was added for DW along with 2 other specs that uses a 2h (outside of this overpowered unholy spec on classic right now where the pets are doing about as much damage as a ret or blood dk.
“Class fantasy” is a core pillar of WoW, so I think understanding what that “fantasy” is, is very important. So it may just be a case of not quite understanding what Blizzard sees at the fantasy of a DW’ing Death Knight?
Because “ice” is not and never has been associated with “speed”. It is quite literally the inverse in most cases, where blizzards are slow and powerful, much like a 2handed weapon would be. I still stand by it would make a better fit as the Tank spec as well, as the iconic Arthas/Lich King imagery has always shown him as a hulking behemoth covered in ice, which seems totally congruent with what a Tank should be.
Unholy seems the more relevant for DW’ing, since you could absolutely imagine wielding a couple of disgusting, rusted blades that seek merely to cut and infect their victims with diseases, whereas a 2handed weapon is really more for powerful chops and cleaving your enemies.
I’d still personally lean towards Unholy wielding some kind of “Scythe”, or perhaps even becoming a +Int user and wielding Staffs, becoming more of a full-fledged Necromancer. Or hell, maybe forming a “Scythe” out of bone for one-off attacks and spells?
1 Like
We are not ice knights though. Our icy frost abilities affect others for the most part.
Arthas and the Lich King were not always shown as a hulking begemoth covered in ice. The only reasons he was ever “covered in ice” was due to his location. Icecrown. When Arthas was going to attack Silvermoon he didnt leave a wake of frozen land behind him, he literally scorched the earth through rot and its still dead.
Unholy disease damage wasnt even that great and still isnt. So its not death by a thousand cuts through diseases, but through pets. Diseases on classic make up about 6-7% in single target? Even DW and Blood Caked Blade is really low %wise.
So I really dont understand how people can look at the design of specs and think its a completely different design philosophy than how its designed.
I could imagine Arcane summoning arcane weapon illusions and being a melee like battlemage, but it doesnt mean thats how it is. It is what it is though regardless of how you imagine it to be.
He literally wields a weapon called Frostmourne, which he obtained in the frozen wastes of Northrend. You’re right that he didn’t deal frost damage, but I think there is certainly some connection.
As far as Unholy’s diseases, I’m not sure I would judge it specifically by the numbers. Paladins deal mostly physical damage, but “Holy magic” is still a prime part of the overall themes and “fantasy” of a Paladin. Diseases deal passive damage, so of course the devs wouldn’t want it to make up all your damage. Most of your damage requires diseases to be on your target, though, so it’s thematically consistent.
I think Remorseless Winter is pretty iconic, and the Frostwyrm/Frostwhelp stuff is fairly cool. But overall, it just feels a bit… loosely defined. What exactly does Frost have to do with dual-wielding? Why are those things tied together? It just seems a bit odd.
Most classes’ specs are pretty identifiable. Each spec caters to a particular kind of fantasy. Frost Death Knight just seems a bit undefined; it’s not a “type” of character, it seems like the choice is purely mechanical. It doesn’t have a particular “vibe” or “theme” to it, at least not one I can see.
4 Likes
I’m loving my DK in WoTLK. I kind of wish unholy played more like that again. This wound popping situation leaves me feeling sad inside. I feel like I just want UH to have a lower GCD, and do more dmg from the DK himself. I love the Rot n Dot playstyle and pets, sure. But I want to do DMG when I press scourge strike. meh.
P.S. After playing WoTLK, I miss DW UH on retail (if only just for transmog)
1 Like
Frostmourne in name. But it does shadow damage in WoW, and in the story does stuff with souls.
Diseases were a means for other things. But they werent that much damage like people claim is all im saying and they themselves were poor damage and still kind of are. Seen as low as 1.8% overall damage from virulent plague.
For Frost DK and why its DW. They wanted DW somewhere and they pulled from NPC designs and other classes. DnD is from the lich in hyjal, runes are from this rune master class thing they were working on and where AMS and AMZ is from initially. Death Grip from warriors. So they could have pulled from the Frost Warriors in Storm Peaks that were DW and kind of linked to Arthas through Muradin.
Not to mention Northrend and Wrath as a whole is nordic inspired in my opinion. Loken, Tyr, Angorboda, Mimiron, Freya and on. I would say a DW berserker of the North is pretty fitting. DW also kind of worked as a 2H with the benefits of DW.
After seeing what the devs at blizz have done to SV hunter. I dont know if I would trust them to properly make any of the changes suggested in this thread. Some great ideas no doubt, but it would worry me if they tried to make some of them happen.
The only spec that I think totally misses the mark for me is frost - I think it should definitely be a tank spec and/or it should lean a lot more into freezing up your opponents and shattering them for massive damage or freezing up yourself for defences. I agree as it stands it just doesn’t feel like a fun theme overall to play and it’s sad because I think it could be super cool.
Blood I agree should definitely lean more into it’s vampiric side (for example bone shield is dumb and should be unholy for example). But I actually do like it’s play style overall, I just wish that it’s core rotation looked cooler/was a bit more interactive. I also wouldn’t mind it leaning more into summoning pets and consuming them to sustain themself.
While I adore unholy and I love the new talents, I agree it needs to be soft reworked to lean a LOT more into the necromancy side. I would love it to be more like demo as currently the only cool ability is Apocalypse and that is wearing off quite quickly. I am very sad I never player DK during legion and hearing you talk about it sounds so fun.
no thanks i like to actually deal damage.
Can you really explain the “fantasy” of Frost as it stands currently, though?
Like, “what kind of character is it supposed to be”? Not just the gameplay function?
The fantasy of frost is killing stuff with ice. i’m sure your argument will eventually be like “frost magic is for tanking” and i think that’s stupid. frost mage is a dps and frost dk should remain as one. stop trying to turn my favourite spec into a zero dps crapper
1 Like
Changes for Unholy here.
Both frost and blood had tank/dps variations when DK was first released in wotlk.