But you misunderstand, monk is viable they aren’t doing just the minimum, they are over it even without doing perfect parse.
please do this blizzard, please. hit combo is not fun or interesting. and add whirling dragon punch and fix bugs.
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I apologize for being a stalker, but I’m always curious about how other Mistweavers perform since I love the class.
I found your logs from last night, and you were top by quite a bit on Vexiona (10k HPS above the #2 healer). On Shadar you were also top and 5k above #2. On Drestgath you were almost double the #2 healer. That’s not even taking into consideration the 10k-30k ish DPS you were doing on every fight, which was higher than the other healers combined on a lot of fights.
There were a few fights where you weren’t the top (Maut has a huge disparity; Xanesh was just a bit lower than the other two; and Hivemind quite a bit behind the shaman but not too far below the priest). Some of that behind-ness could be chopped up to certain healers fitting a niche and even talent, gear, and essence choices that could be more optimal for certain fights.
I’m not accusing you or anything, and I’m definitely not trying to pick on you. It’s just that (based on your logs), monks are top by a decent margin on certain fights or not that much lower than comparable healers on other fights.
The point I’m trying to make is that oftentimes the forums make specific specs or classes out to be dumpster trash garbage unplayable Blizzard delete this class. This mindset then influences players who are objectively not anything like the forums claim. In reality the majority of players are average or better playing these supposedly broken specs in anything but cutting edge content (which the vast majority of players don’t do). Not saying there aren’t any issues, just that monks are in a much better place than the forums give them credit for.
Again, not trying to pick on you so I’m sorry if it feels like I am. Have a nice day and keep on mistweaving 
PS: That poor Resto Druid… I didn’t even notice he was there because he was under the tanks on every fight.
Monks were already subpar in 8.0 and in 8.1 they got “reworked” which is a fancy term for nerfed. There were a bunch of people defending it on the monk forums though, so I guess you reap what you sow.
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No youre 100% right. I had to parse in the high 80s to keep up with the holy priest parsing in the 50s on some mythic fights. It was stupid.
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Yeah, the resto druid was new to the team…and new to raiding, I think.
The disparity between specs definitely isn’t enough to say that the spec can’t be brought, at least in heroic. I’m not going to go into mythic because I’m not a mythic raider and don’t understand the problems there myself. I know from looking at charts that mistweavers fall behind in mythic compared to other healers, but that’s all I know.
I was bringing rising mist last night, because for most of BFA my content has been M+ and I’m just more comfortable with the playstyle. Rising mist definitely contributes heavily to my dps, and my dps is also skewed by my rank 3 infinite stars.
Don’t get me wrong, I definitely enjoy the spec. I love to push the charts and top other specs. I don’t necessarily think we’re garbage, and I don’t necessarily want to be top tier for everything. But I do feel like there are some issues with the spec. It’s easy to empty our mana bar very quickly without watching if we’re just trying to keep up with other healers. Mana tea feels lackluster (and it’s still on the GCD). I’m going to miss my mana essences going into shadowlands, I really will…
It’s especially easy to notice the difference when playing another healer. I don’t play my alts quite as competitively, but I notice that even after difficult packs in m+ I don’t need to drink on my disc priest. I notice that I can keep up with other healers on my holy pally even when I have no idea what I’m doing in raid.
I suppose it’s just a question of how much effort you can put into a spec to reach their skill ceiling. And it feels like MW and WW hit it just a little sooner than other specs in their role.
I love playing my MW. I’m willing to put in the extra effort. But there are a few things that, if they did change, would make the spec even more fun to play. Things like a little extra boost to Rising Mist, or an extra charge of Renewing Mists.
Mistweaver is fun, but it needs more than fun to compete.
WW and other specs (Sub) isn’t really viable. You only have these specs completing Mythic N’zoth because other specs like Fire mage / Destro are carrying. Sub is like half of a fire mage dps. WW is just a bit above sub.
Saying a spec is viable doesn’t mean anything because that spec is most likely getting carried. If you had a raid full of the lower tier dps you wouldn’t be progressing very or very far.
Its like at the start of the tier, you had MW / Hpriest / druid being so underplayed because you needed the Hpally/disc/Rshaman healing throughput + CD’s. The few MW’s in the top 100 guilds got carried by the Hpally. Even today you still need good specs to carry the bad specs on N’zoth / cara.
Viable is a very strong word for WW. A lot of specs are in this “viable” category.
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Oh yes, the mana issue. I’ll agree with you there, monk mana goes out the door quickly if you aren’t careful. Mana is the one thing I’d consider truly “broken” about monks, especially compared to other healers.
Minimum dps needed for every dps to avoid enrage timers on like ST fights is around I think maybe about 50k(? Not sure here because my raid leading friend is the one that keeps up with that) and monks right now played well are above that.
If you are doing under the minimum needed as a WW then its the WW and not the spec.
Dps will never be equal across the board, but the tightness from the top to the bottom.
Maybe because I played an enhance back in wrath and you had to play perfectly to be competitive in dps or what, but WW doesn’t need to he “carried” through by dps.
I know Talb and Babs both have been over what viable actually means and can word it more elegantly than I could.
There is a difference between what is best and what is viable is pretty big.
A follow up though, how much of that DPS is currently borrowed power? What hits are they going to take without essences and corruptions? We know those are gone soon and for a lot of classes I’ve them make up a huge portion of their output.
You can claim viable however you want, but in the end, numbers say the spec is bad and needs to be carried. This is why every raid wants Fire mages/BM hunters/ Destro locks. These 3 specs help carry the lower specs like WW/Sub. There’s a reason Sub isn’t played. There’s a reason WW isn’t played much in the higher tier of raiding.
Raiding now and raiding back in Wrath are 2 different things. I raided enough in wrath to know that mythic raiding now is a whole different story.
There’s no arguing that the lower specs get carried by the higher specs. Same reason for why you don’t see many mythic N’zoth kills without a Hpally/Disc priest.
Another reason I make and add to existing threads for all specs to be treated equal. No reason to leave sub at < half of fire mage dps. They’re literally leaving specs dead in the water for an entire expansion. Another reason I get worried about the beta.
MW was considered BAD for the start of 8.3! No1 was playing it. 1 day some guy gets avg 80-100% haste. MW suddenly becomes god mode. Every1 wants to play with a MW and get carried in Mythic raiding.
Great examples
This is the Overall for Healing specs. A lot of people seem to think MW is only a lil bit behind the other healers. When in fact, MW is incredibly far behind the others. To do 70% of our max healing as a MW is so easy. Its easy to do the 70% of our max healing which makes our avg healing look high. Our theoretical max is so much lower vs other healers. This is the problem. We have nothing else to make up for the lack of HPS numbers. So what do we do??? We bring in the Disc priest/Hpally to make up for the lack of utility / raw hps. We get carried on the fights that need real healing.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/24/#metric=hps
Dmg for overall Nya
WW just bad all around
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/24/#
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You realize that’s everyone right? And we were able to in 8.0 and 8.1 (you know before both those things) to pull the required numbers to fill a role.
That’s not how that works, you aren’t made weak because of someone else’s strength.
What it means to be viable in terms of pve dps, is that you have enough ability to survive, you meet certain minimum dps requirements to avoid enrage timers.
We can do both things and have the potential to go beyond that minimum, not as far as everyone else, but still far enough.
Currently every dps spec can pull beyond the minimum requirements, if you fell behind the minimum that is what it means to be carried.
Do the Mythic N’zoth with all WW/Sub/Surv/enh/ele. Also bring no Disc priest and no hpally.
Tell me how that works out.
edit:
I was thinking about this. I don’t know if you could even find enough sub/surv to participate in this experiment.
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Not exactly sure why people still deny the fact that WW scale horribly and always have. We’ll be fine at the start of the expansion like every other expansion, but as newer and higher stated gear comes out all other classes start to ‘come online’ while WW starts to fall behind. Nothing I’ve seen with the SL beta has changed this.
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Numbers aren’t the issue for us, it’s the missing meaningful utility that makes us a lackluster choice for raiding and I am all for (and been this whole time) advocating for returns of meaningful group utility.
Eg: MoP Zen med
That returned I feel would go a long way into making us a solid choice, instead of a good enough one.
Yes, it feels bad to have people with access to multiple dps specs to be above us in max potential with all available of their choices, but that doesn’t make us weak just weaker, there is a massive difference between those two.
Again go ask babs or talby to explain the concept of what viable actually means.
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Where has anyone said this?
Yes, you can’t afford 90% of the goods everyone else can. It sucks. But that doesn’t make you poor! Huge difference.
Look, I bet you have scrounged enough to sample that pastry over there.
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Adding my voice but sadly it feels like yelling into the void. No blue posts in 5 months but one saying they will do their job in 7 days, but 8 days later still nothing or even an apology as to why they are late. It’s no wonder why all the leaders of the monk community are playing other classes.
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Yeah I wouldn’t worry about MW changes tbh. After seeing them attach our mastery to Expel Harm tells me they have no intentions of changing our mastery. Mastery might be the biggest flaw in our kit. No GCD change for Mana Tea was a let down.
As of right now I’m more concerned about the 50+ bugs MW has in beta. I’d rather Blizzard fix all the bugs over trying to make our Kit better.
They obviously haven’t put any thought into MW changes so why chance it?
Being on the beta last night for 1 hour. I ran into bug after bug. All of these bugs have been laid out in detail on the Monk Beta Forums!
The only part of the beta I like atm is Tear of Morning. This seems to be the most exciting part of MW for SL. I’m sure it’ll get nerfed. Mostly likely.
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One of the issues I’ve had with MW since Legion is that getting all my ReM’s out doesn’t make me feel powerful, but rather “oh I can heal now”.
I’ve always resented the fact that MW never feels powerful. Hpals can push Wings, Rdruids can pre-roll hots, have efflo down and be ready to push huge HPS with WG/Tranq/Regrowths. Rshams can hit Ascendance or have CBT ready or High Tide procced and waiting. MW has nothing that really ramps their healing and makes me feel like I’m ready for a big pull or a tough mechanic.
Having Gusts partially proc on ReM bounces and cleave Vivify targets would go a long way to fixing this issue imo. I should feel powerful if I’m doing the work to maintain ReM on 5 targets in M+. At the moment it feels like a chore required to make sure that 1 guy doesn’t get bad ReM bounce RNG and has zero healing during a tantrum on Cragmaw or something.
More fundamentally, I think MW having as much upkeep as it does with ReM, EF, Enveloping and Soothing is why the spec feels so clunky. It’s only powerful when all of those things are working together and spinning that many plates isn’t fun when the cost of spinning them is your entire mana bar every minute. I feel like playing MW well is knowing which plates to ignore and that isn’t compelling gameplay. I’d rather worry about what I can press to excel rather than what I can cut to save mana and hope people don’t die.
If the tank is taking damage and 2 DPS are too I want to Soothing into Enveloping the tank, use my ReM charge on a DPS without ReM or hope ReM’s have bounced to those DPS and then decide if I channel EF for 0.1 second to get the double Gusts procs on the DPS or just Vivify spam them. All of that would be like 25% of my mana but a Rdruid never worries about the tank cos they just keep hots rolling and 1 Rejuv/Regrowth is probably enough to top the DPS and if not press WG. Maybe the Rdruid spends 10% mana doing that and goes back to DPS’ing.
MW is clunky because it spends twice the mana and makes twice as many decisions as other healers to end up with less healing.
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