Yeah, that sounds rough.
Hopefully we see some changes at Blizzcon.
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This is truth⌠and no i dont want that or even the melee weapons. But you are missing the pointâŚ
The point is that im willing to deal with that, for the other stuff im gaining.
I hope this is taken into account and many of the things they have taken away are return as we move forward.
I wouldnât agree with this Iâm afraid.
Fair enough. You liked the Vanilla/TBC approach more. WotLK still partially catered towards it, though you could clearly see at the time that we were moving away from the old concepts.
Personally, I very much liked what Cata brought to the table. It was by no means perfect.
But to start with, we got a resource that actually fit the class.
Cata also gave those of us who wanted, the feel of actually specializing in a particular fantasy that in itself, catered towards the general class fantasy.
The big downside with the new talent/spec design?
Less freedom to choose whatever you want from wherever you want.
The big upside?
A higher chance to find a style which you actually liked. Simply because there were now more of them.
Technically yes, prior to Cata, there were more choices you could make in terms of raw talent picks. But in all honesty, no matter what talents you did pick, your core playstyle did not change a whole lot.
Part from the very few ability-choices that we had, your core was still the same.
Which also meant that if you did not like that core, you were out of luck.
Cata, brought in 3 core specs. Sure, they werenât exactly mind-blowing in terms of uniqueness. But they were enough to make it feel like you were focusing on something moreâŚspecific, within the class.
Iâm fairly invested in one of theâŚhotterâŚtopics on the forums, that can be seen and have been for several expansions now.
That topic, is the return of the old ranged Survival spec that included for example Explosive Shot and Black Arrow.
Now, Iâm not for the removal of melee Survival(the one that exists in the game today). I might not like melee-combat, but I understand that there are others who prefer that playstyle along with the other things that the spec now provides.
So, what is my suggestion/hope for how more players could get what they want without it hurting others?
A 4th spec option.
Usually, this is where many stops reading.
I believe that a 4th spec option, is the only way to get a proper version of that spec back without having to vastly change any existing specializations, which would most likely upset many players in itself, if it was to be done.
If there was one thing that I would want back the most, it would be the option to once again opt into the fighting style of the old ranged SV.
Iâve posted suggestions of my own towards what it could be designed like in order to fit the modern game.
Both on the EU forums:
As well as on this forum(US):
#[Suggestions updated] Pre-Legion/Ranged Survival
Also have a post on MMOC.
Over time, these have generated some great feedback. And Iâve always love to see what others who liked that spec, want back the most.
Sure, that spec wasnât for everybody. But thatâs also the beauty of focused specializations. If we have several of them that does have unique identities, the chance that you will find something you like, will increase.
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As long as we can remain mobile with focus Iâm ok with itâŚwhen it first came out it immobilized us in short order and was a disaster for kiters
It wasnât designed perfectly no. There were several issues with it.
No surprise really as it is likely to happen when completely new systems are brought into a class.
The fact that weâve seen so many issues with the class since then as well, is for the very same reason really.
Such vast changes that have been implemented across several expansions, it will always cause further problems that has to be dealt with.
Sure, the specs we have today, arenât perfect either. Far from it.
But no matter what is done to the class, as long as they continue with these large changes, we will never get to a state where it becomes more about fine-tuning what quirks that might exist in the current form.
As an example, we had the changes going from WoD to Legion.
Then, despite that the general design philosophy remained mostly the same between Legion and BfA, we still had changes done to the class that caused other problems to be brought to the surface instead of some old ones.
My biggest worry looking ahead, is that they have once again pretty much overhauled the class and we will be in the same situation all over again. With a bunch of new problems that has to be dealt with. Most of which would most likely take the majority of the new expansion to fix, if even that.
Adding in/removing things from an existing spec will always cause some problems, sure. But thatâs not what Iâm talking about here.
Iâm talking about completely re-thinking how the class should function.
I am sorry if I helped make you feel unwanted, when it was pointed out that my new class structure would probably force you to reroll, I dropped it, the 4th spec option is much better. I DO NOT want you to have to go through seeing your favorite spec mutilated the same way I didâŚ(RSV).
That said, it would actually be pointless to have RSV return if the play level difficulty doesnât changeâŚwho needs a trap master if tanks can still hold off 50 mobs at once? Protecting a group from more adds than we could handle at once used to be me jobâŚâŚâŚ.(CC)
Havng my role removed and then my specâŚwell thatâs a lot of D**m salt in my woundsâŚI left the game for a LONG time because of it.
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Really well thought out dissenting opinion. Thank you. You changed some of my thinking. Donât take things away, ADD things.
A 4th spec option would be a really interesting thing to see across the board. I did love explosive shot. With a spec, would you prefer a talent tree approach or what we still currently have?
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Thanks, though you were among the least of them.
Keep in mind I have been SV since late 2006. Itâs not like removing RSV didnât make me mad, it did. It was the reaction of people to the idea that those of us who play MSV are somehow traitors or not even Hunters at all that did it.
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Are you seeing this on the Test servers, or is it something I missed that the Devs have spoken about?
after playing classic for a month, i would prefer this over the current spec design.
you have barbed shot on retail that ignores armor and is a dot its pretty much the same thing and a mana sting wouldnt matter in this meta.
Sure, a description like âdullâ is subjective, but the same static rotation of Auto -> Aimed -> Auto -> Multi -> Auto for all 3 specs can be justifiably described as âdullâ by many. It got even worse in Burning Crusade with Steady Shot. In BFA you have a priority system and each spec has a different set of abilities. As BM (the most popular spec) you will be using Kill Command, Cobra Shot, and Barbed Shot, but not in a set order. You use them when you need to according to your cooldowns, your focus, and whatâs happening in the fight.
As for pruning, itâs a mixed bag. When it comes to rotation I donât think itâs âprunedâ v.s. Vanilla. Aimed Shot still exists albeit specific to Marksmanship and Multi-Shot still exists and is share by BM and MM. Like I said each spec has a bunch of specific abilities that didnât exist in Vanilla. Itâs certainly pruned over some later expansions like MoP but not versus Vanilla. Some useful utilities really have been pruned e.g. Distracting Shot and Viper Sting but many of the removed ones are not game changers. Wing Clip is obsolete because you can use Concussive Shot in melee range and it has a 4-sec cooldown now. On the flip-side a lot of useful utilities have been added, too, such as Aspect of the Turtle and Disengage.
Galaxy brain take here. We can triple WoW subs by just making Auto Shot immobile and clippable! Thatâs what everyone is coming back to Classic for, right?
You should read the clickbait more carefully. Even if we take that figure at face value, it adds a caveat that the resulting sub revenue is still lower than that of the BFA launch window so this says NOTHING about the post-Cataclysm direction of Hunters. In Cata and MoP the game had more subs than in Vanilla and Hunter representation was way up so evidently people actually liked that design.
Itâs not about having trouble with threat. I donât have trouble with threat. If I pull aggro I just Feign Death. The point is Disengage is actually worthless. Even in the rare situations where it SHOULD be useful it just isnât. In WotLK it was changed to a backwards leap which is so much more practical and flavourful and has become a staple of the class.
And my point is that classic is not the iteration to use as a role model. At least look at WotLK, which is pretty much the same foundational design with a bunch of stuff added on top to fix everything Classic missed.
Modern Hunters have severe issues but itâs not as stripped down as you are portraying.
It isnât, though, because classic players are very purist and basically are against modern WoW by principle, so theyâll just end up pissing off people who play modern WoW while the classic players continue to stick to classic. And, like I said earlier, Hunter representation was way up in Cata, MoP, and WoD. When you see threads asking what iteration of peopleâs spec they liked the most, the most common answers are WotLK and MoP. Pretending that all the classic hype is due to the class design, especially when it comes to Hunters, is pretty delusional.
Itâs not a dichotomy. There does not have to be a trade. They do not have to sacrifice good aspects of modern Hunter design. They can just bring back some of the pruned abilities we missed and leave it at that. Bringing back a minimum range alone will make it a WORSE overall experience no matter what else they add.
They could also add a mechanic that requires us to do a 360 degree spin after every shot for maximum damage. That would be a skill cap. Doesnât make it not terrible. You canât just defend any old crappy mechanic with âskill cap!â. Minimum range diluted the identity of the class, required us to take melee weapons causing a myriad of loot issues, and made the class weaker, all to reinforce a playstyle principle (âtry to keep out of meleeâ) that exists regardless. There are skill caps in other areas of the game. For example, the modern iteration of Beast Mastery has a strong cooldown management factor that doesnât really exist in Classic.
Actually Cataclysm made it much better. Going to focus and a 1.0 sec GCD alone were game changers. The class is now far more dynamic and versatile. Youâre just clinging to obsolete mechanics and giving them artificial value when they really donât provide anything.
We are not a melee class. Adding melee back to every spec would make the class much worse, unless you think being able to do almost no damage during a required raid stack or whatever is somehow a thrilling experience that will triple the number of people playing Hunter.
You can get Aspect of the Chameleon right now from a vendor (which is a pretty Classic-esque way of obtaining an ability when you think about it) but for some reason itâs a cooldown instead of a permanent buff. I guess the existence of Camouflage kind of limits the usefulness of being untrackable.
Why? Once again, Wing Clip is functionally useless due to the current iteration of Concussive Shot as well as Disengage and Hi-Explosive Trap.
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It does not make the pet untrackable, it has a CD and it is limited in duration. It is the single worst change the Class has have been given. Making it account wide doesnât even make it worth 1 gold, much less 50.
Didnât know this but given it was added in Legion of all expansions this doesnât surprise me at all; the same expansion that straight-up forgot to add a Dire Frenzy bonus to our T19 set and also made Camouflage a talent for MM and SV but not BM.
It sucks but it really isnât that bad.
Ignoring melee stuff, I would say the worst change made to the class would be re-upping the GCD to 1.5 seconds in Legion, along with Legionâs haphazard utility pruning and BFAâs addition of cooldowns to the GCD.
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It is that bad. Itâs close to their ignoring feedback on the Class.
Both have been more beneficial to me as it made it easier for me (someone with dexterity issues) to play. I might not like the over-pruning, but they also made it so that I can play at a better level than I have in years.
If youâre taking the 200% increae of subs at face value like you said, if your read the article it comapred it to BFAâS launch revenue. What did BFA have that classic didnât? An actual game to purchase.
Yes the best bet for Blizzard is to get Classic people to TRY retail. There are alot more revenue streams that exist in retail, rather than just a sub number.
As far as hunter opinion is concerned I told you we have to agrer to disagree. Youre not adding anything to the conversation, yourr just being rude.
Galaxy brain- I never said stagnate shooting led to an increase of subs. No one thinks your funny cute or clever. Go plug your youtube videos more. Kthnx
<3
Honestly, what we currently have.
Sure, the current design adds a restriction for you to only focus on one spec/fantasy at a time.
But as for making specific choices, we actually have more freedom now compared to in the past.
I also like being able to further build towards the fantasy/playstyle that I like, within a chosen spec or fighting style.
Iâm not overly thrilled that so many talents available to us today are very stand-alone and have no real ties to your core spec.
You can see that if you check the talent section in my own suggestion posts. There, all talents either build towards the intended fantasy of the spec or for anyone who wantâs the feel of interacting somewhat more with their pet, they can also do that.
People are so quick these days to say that petâs should be entirely optional for most specs. Pets are horrible and the pet AI is garbage etc. etc.
The thing is, making pets optional, wouldnât solve the issues with them. Itâs the equivalent of sweeping it under the rug and hoping that few enough people care about pets for it to matter anyway.
Neither.
Itâs just me that have worries due to the extensive amount of changes we have gone through with pretty much every single expansion as of late.
My hope is that they will stop trying to reinvent it all and focus on improving what is already there. Based on feedback as well. Not just their own ideas.
A general design approach that I do like.
I would agree.
My hope is that we can get some extra situational abilities back to the entire class.
Such as
Distracting Shot, preferably you could combine this with Misdirection to essentially misdirect a taunt to for example a tank.
Tranquilizing Shot back.
I want the offensive pet dispells removed/replaced by defensive dispells that your pet can cast on a friendly unit instead.
Eyes of the Beast. Not always that useful, but ALWAYS that fun!
And some other stuffâŚ
I would agree. There are so many ways to use it now.
Agreed.
But reinventing the design again is not the answer.
We should start improving instead of scrapping. And yes, some stuff should flat out be removed. But Iâm talking more about the general approach to design philosophies.
Yep.
Like Bepples said, imagine a boss fight where the strategy is to stack up with the boss while dealing damageâŚ
Technically yes. It does add a skill cap.
But what is the actual upside of having such a skill cap? What useful advantage would you get?
Added skill caps should provide us with bigger advantages. Otherwise, it isnât really useful to have them.
Removal of ranged SV!?!
I just had toâŚ
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You seem to have misread, or that article is wrong.
In quoting the fact:
World of Warcraft subscription revenue grew an estimated 223% in August compared to July. Despite this, total revenue was still lower than the Battle for Azeroth expansion last August.
Source: https://www.wowhead.com/news=295273/classic-triples-wow-subscription-revenue-in-august
In short, BFA subscription revenue was more than Classic. Though, as I understand it, the subscription revenue had significantly dropped from BFA release, until the August release of classic, for the reasons of class design and unpopular systems (to name a couple).
Classicâs appeal is not in itâs PvE rotations, but of itâs (now) lost content, and situational abilities that have been pruned. Dead zones (which have been mislabelled (more on this later)), or reliance to melee attacks, have no place in current gameplay for encounters such as Vectus, where stacking is absolutely needed.
On Deadzones:
(----------a----------(-b-(âcâPlayer
a: Range - From 8 yards.
b: Deadzone - Between 5 yards, and 8 yards.
c: Melee Range - 5 yards.
To quote:
The dead zone references the distance in which a player cannot do any useful action against a hostile target. Generally this term is used by Hunters and Warriors to refer to the distance over 5 yards and less than 8 yards away from them. At 5 yards and less, a player can engage in melee combat. At 8 yards and more, a player can engage in ranged combat.
Source: https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Dead_zone#targetText=Dead%20zone&targetText=The%20dead%20zone%20references%20the,can%20engage%20in%20melee%20combat.
In regards to the appeal of Classic that situational abilities and utility that extend past the rotation. This was still the case many years later in Cata and Mists, while quality of life has substantially increased over that time, eliminating dead zones, mana, planted auto-shots and the taming of low level pets as a high level character (to name a few).
Classic had some cool things, but I certainly would not call for using it as an example of playstyles that are needed for retail (of which could absolutely be improved on).
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i want my viper sting back bad
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OP youâve never earned a single AoTC or Cutting Edge. Canât fathom how posters like you keep complaining and saying that theyâre dumbing things down when you canât even do the medium to high difficulty content.
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