Whoooa. Okay, so, I think you’re having a conversation beyond me and beyond what we’re talking about here, which makes sense because hybrid-v-pure it’s a big topic with a lot of hot takes. Feel free to go on a spicy tirade if it’s your jam.
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The core of my current argument is an indictment on the current state of the game that has some (not all) specs feasting with multiple damage profiles cranked at once. Don’t forget, rogues are routinely fed lines about needing to swap to a different spec if they don’t like the damage profiles they’re saddled with in another. More often, you find that the damage specs of hybrid classes have just a hint more baked into them because they don’t have access to other damage specs. Why should that be?
And I’ll push against your calls for explanation with one of my own: why should certain hybrid specs (Enhancement, let’s say) have near-universal profile range in a fight (eg. being able to deftly swap from ST to 3-5 target) while certain “pure” specs (Assassination, let’s say) gets to glue on ST because their multi-target is mediocre-bad? Why does Assassination get to wait in line for a SpEc IdEnTitY?
Basically, I look at arguments like what you have above and it loosely translates into, “I want hybrid specs a shot at being the best because I, as a player, want every spec to be powerful.” I don’t disagree with that notion necessarily, but I also think people are kidding themselves if they think the design accounts for that idea with every spec/class in the game currently. Please.
For the longest enhance was just “ST, no AE”. and Elemental was “AE, but no enhance”
Because they are both seen as “dps” and that means sometimes one will be designed better than the other. Just because enhance is strong right now, doesnt mean assassination shouldnt be buffed.
A person playing a “pure dps” role has nothing to do with how that spec should be designed with damage profiles. Same for hybrid. Each dps spec is looked at individually, as they should be. If any dps spec, hybrid or “pure” is lacking…they should be helped.
But to sit here and pretend that all hybrids always get all damage profiles in every single spec is just amazingly silly.
Yes you do. You have literally said the opposite. How hybrid specs should never be at the top of damage.
Yes, but your notion is that “pure dps” specs are specifically picked on, and only “pure dps” specs have damage profiles limited and nerfed.
Also I have noted how you seem completely fine with “pure dps” keeping their loads of utility, despite utility being your main reason stated that hybrids need to have damage nerfed.
Okay, so, as I mentioned above, I wasn’t really hoping for a major subject change to coddle anyone’s Wednesday ideas of hybrid supremacy, so I apologize if I don’t point-by-point you here. I also think you’re helping your argument a great deal by quote-picking, putting words in my mouth, and strategically conflating ideas, and it makes sense to present your ideas that way. I’ll try to address some quick points, but it looks like you want much larger of a discussion to defend something sorta lame, so I’ll bounce out after this.
Your argument is basically the ideal that everything in this game should be about spec because players identify with certain specs and bring them to play situations to the exclusion of other specs in their class. I get that. I actually wish that I had more access to play the spec I like so roundedly, but that’s beside the point. I also wish spec design and balance helped that idea along more than it does, but the attention is wildly disproportionate, mostly by way of apology reworks. If you’re interested, part of my point against hybrids being designed to be “the best” (vs. “the worst”) stems from the idea that Blizzard needs to stop FOTM’ing specs that feel sad because they suffered a hybrid tax for a while.
I didn’t say this? Huh??
I also think you’re conflating ideas of utility, or maybe you’re just not really thinking too deeply about the kinds of utility that specs actually have access to - or both? In fact, I’m not actually sure about the kinds of utility you’re referring to. Do you mean, like, cast utility in real time? Do you mean the utility of being able to swap to a heal or tank role to grind gear ahead of dedicated classes? If your point is something silly and outdated about role-dedicated classes having more utility than hybrids, I’m not really sure there’s actually reasonable conversation to be had here…
I am sorry for giving your a point by point response to coddle your Wednesdays ideas of pure dps supremacy.
I never once gave any statement about hybrids needing to be superior. Please try to keep this conversation based on things people are actually saying.
Oh dear. You are against putting words in peoples mouths, but that was your opening sentence.
Isnt there a word for people that do the very things they bemoan others for doing?
Well considering now you have resorted to strawman arguments, and just general talking down to. Go for it.
That is literally how it is at the moment.
But hybrids are not inherently designed to be the best.
If anything the pure dps specs are routinely “the best”.
You literally talked about how hybrids are giving multiple damage profiles baked into their singular dps role, since they can not switch into multiple dps specs.
Immunities such as iceblock and turtle are huge utility.
Snaring mobs with things like blizzard. Utility.
High Mobility via Blink can also become great utility.
No. Because utility is based on what you do during a fight.
I never said that, only that pure dps specs still have great utility. And if you want hybrid dps specs nerfed on their dps due to their utility, I want pure dps specs to have their utility nerfed.
this part bothers me as well. more so with this week’s affix than last week’s, as the pool of classes who can handle the affix this week is much smaller.
this week it’s healers & hybrids. pure dps (I think across the board) can’t do anything about them.
some might think that’s fine, but it is pretty restrictive and forces some comp choices in group making.
Hey now, I never said it wasn’t good utility, but you’re definitely presenting it as some game-breaking thing while also tossing poison-cleanse totems out at Afflicted adds on your second monitor, so like…?
I never called it gamebreaking. But now I have to ask…
The entire basis for your disagreement is “good vs huge”? You are ok with calling turtle good utility. But me calling it huge makes you and your friends just laugh.
Your phrasing clearly meant to frame the ability as something amazing, and then you used an example to distinguish it as cheese among other lowly utility spells. Move the goalposts all you like now, but you tried an argument that caused lols
What phrasing, specifically? I know you dont like words being put in peoples mouths, so I am genuinely curious where I outlined immunities as some game breaking thing.
I didn’t move any goalposts by pointing out that DPS classes also have some really good utility.
And if the threshold for doing lower dps is utility, than that needs to be taken into account.
You said that turtle was huge utility and then went on to evidence that by saying that “there have literally been raid fights defined by people with immunities cheesing mechanics”, so, apologies, you’re right; you didn’t say “gamebreaking”. You said “huge” and “immunities cheesing mechanics” Totally my mistake, that what you actually meant by that was something more lukewarm. It’s hard to understand your points when they rattle all over.
I didn’t say that you moved the goalposts by pointing out that DPS class also have some really good utility. I meant to imply that you moved the goalposts by saying that turtle was huge cheese utility but then trying to walk that definition into a space where it simply means “so-so”, which is definitely moving the goalposts.
I never ever said here that the threshold for doing lower dps is utility. Huh?? Are you talking to me or to a more general conversation hidden in the ether? To my original points above, I think it’s the latter. Soapbox away, my friend.
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Anyway, Afflicted obviously needs a rethink. It allows disproportionate engagement in a way that ices a few specs in the game from pugging. Please allow more access to the affixes, or simply design better affixes.
No. I meant what I said. Huge. It didnt break the game. But it was huge.
I never said it means so-so. Its weird. There is a gradient scale. Things can be better than so-so but not game breaking.
I mean, its a easy affix either way. Plenty of affixes have effect some classes more than others. Plenty of affixes some people can just about straight up ignore.
Overall i think the affix is pretty close to being quite good. I just wish more specs had the ability to engage with Afflicted.
Personally, I think Incorporeal is a pretty big W. Basically any group comp is more than capable of dealing with the affix, with some classes just being more ideal than others.
But Afflicted is either bring multiple dispels or have your healer get sweaty with it. Feels pretty bad to be on a class that cant engage with the affix, and just having to watch the cast go off with nowhere to LoS.
Ahh, a death by inches. Let me know when your argument has the exact measurement it needs.
But agreed, Afflicted is an easy affix. I’d love to play it. The only other affix that is restricted to certain classes is (for now) Incorporeal and Raging, both of which are far less impactful for forming groups. Terms like “plenty” and “can just about” won’t change that count. There are three, and only one restricts access to groups currently.
Got it. In your eyes everything is either so-so or breaks the game.
Except that all affixes impact on how a person invites to a group. Sheesh, even quaking and sanguine will impact on what pugs I invite.
Anyways, sorry for some delayed responses. Busy running keys with both a warrior and warlock. Two classes that are apparently restricted from being in my group.
The problem is in the pug scene, the lion’s share of people forming groups aren’t using this as justification to invite people who can’t deal with Afflicted. Thus, warriors and DKs will still be at the bottom of the invite priority list just like last week. Incorp and Afflicted are fine affixes mechanically (with Afflicted needing some minor TLC to be easier to target) but they create social dynamic problems in pugging that only get worse as key level scales.
“Run your own key” is usually the answer here, but it isn’t always the answer and at some point it isn’t the player’s responsibility to make the game playable for themselves. Blizzard holds a stake here. If I end up having the same bad luck as last week where 3 successive attempts at my key are bricked by other players derping around, I’m ultimately going to end up just not running if I also can’t get accepted to groups as a warrior.
