This is a terrible argument because the problem is adding another thing we have to grind IN ADDITION to gear. If essences replaced gear this might be a reasonable argument, but having something else to grind out on top of gear is what people can’t stand. How many grinds for character power are you willing to excuse? What if on top of gear, AP and essences we had to do a similar grind to the essence one for our talents? Is there any point where people who excuse horrible game design break?
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There were some items from those vendors that actually were BiS outside of heroic raiding as well. Did you even play MoP or just putting on a face of ignorance and moving goal posts because you got debunked?
Technically nothing is “best in slot” as the game keeps adding new content. Meaning those “BiS” lists are only temporary.
? Did you begin playing the game with WoD or something?
Vanilla - BiS helm and leg enchant come from ZG reputation in addition to numerous other things you must gather out in the world. BiS ring until Nefarian Ring comes from AV exalted. BiS caster neck if you don’t have the one from Ragnaros comes from Exalted Darkmoon Faire. Numerous crafting and enchanting patterns that are necessary come from extensive reputation grinds. One of your best trinkets in AQ comes from Exalted Cenarion Circle. One of the best pvp trinkets comes from Exalted Timbermaw with a really powerful offhand at like Honored or Revered. Among many others. Hell even the tier from AQ is locked behind a reputation grind. Not really long if you full clear for four weeks straight without spending a single Lord insignia until the trash begins not giving you reputation but it’s still there. The budget version of the gear for low tier raiders locked behind a Cenarion Circle grind with AQ20 or turning in a million twilight texts. Opening AQ40 itself required some guild to load a guy with 42,000 carapace fragments farmed at the elite hives to get their Brood of Nozdormu reputation up enough to do the scepter questline.
TBC - A large portion of your preraid comes from reputation grinds. Most notably the caster weapon from Exalted Thrallmar or rogues needing the exalted sword from Aldor if they aren’t keen on the idea of dropping an absurd sum buying two Blinkstrikes. Once you actually have raiding gear they kind of learned to not make reputation rewards too powerful comparatively but there are a couple anomalies.
Wrath - Largely devoid of this but reputations were basically glorified mount grinds.
Cataclysm - BiS shoulder enchants came from a reputation grind if you weren’t running specific tradeskills. Lots of your preraid came from dungeon associated reputation grinds.
MoP - Almost all of your preraid locked behind numerous rep grinds. Want the good enchants? Eh yeah that’s another rep grind. Best caster enchant? A rep grind that unlocks another reputation that you grind dailies for.
Mentioning pre-raid BIS is a bit redundant here considering for alts you can return and you have catchup gear right away which outpowers previous raid tiers.
Also anyone with a half competent guild could bring in a fresh levelled alt and funnel gear. I know because I had it done for me.
Yeah I’m not talking about now. Read the post I replied to where the person was arguing you have never needed reputation for your BiS. I gave a plethora of exceptions to that claim.
Reading 2/10
Awfully touchy for someone who strawmanned enchants from the original poster talking about pre-raid BIS Gear.
He mentioned BIS gear, you brought up enchants.
Reading 1/10.
edit: lmao ‘pre-raid bis’ still cracks me up.
Right, because enchants totally aren’t part of your best in slot right? Something tells me you have never seen raiding at a competitive level or any serious difficulty completed when it was still relevant.
Check out the kid who just started playing classic and now is a progamer lmao.
I raided Naxx 40 when it was relevant. Don’t worry you’ll be able to recapture the glory and difficulty in classic 
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started playing Classic
Yeah I did from the closed beta early in 2004. I prefer the game over this borefest. I’ve raided with people who are still dominating in Classic on the live servers when we were told private server players would all suck. Not the case clearly since your top guilds are all private server players.
As did I, I got all but three bosses down in 2006 because the final three were just a large jump from everything else in there.
I play because it’s a vastly superior game to what we have now.
I think that definitely comes down to personal opinion. I much prefer the difficulty of retail raids as I’m not much of a pvper.
Even if i was a pvper, I’d still prefer retail because of Arenas, RBGs. How are the horde queues these days?
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Admittedly I can’t weigh in on that. I gave up on cutting edge raiding when Dragon Soul was out because raiding with a top US guild (Blood Legion) while being a dream come true, the raid was bad and the game was getting increasingly worse from a quality standpoint. I want an actual game, not something that is basically “Do content once a week and no reason to play ever again.”
IDK, I was done with AV on the like 2nd or 3rd day of AV coming out with exalted rep. I mostly premade BGs, queues aren’t that bad and we curbstomp most games in about 8 minutes, had a few where we’ve played against a premade we fought before and they default to turtling and drag the game on before we wipe them with sapper charges in the flag room.
Again do you not understand that preraid isn’t actually BIS? You’ve never needed preraid BIS to actually go and do the raid. Dungeon blues have always been sufficient.
Literally the only examples you could give me were from Vanilla, 15 years ago.
You’ve never needed it since then.
The rest of your post was drivel about preraid BIS as if that somehow means anything.
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The new year is coming fast
Time to make a resolution!
Repeat after me, Blizzard:
We will greatly reduce the essence grind, make the 8.2 essences salable by a new 8.3 vendor and remove any time-gating!
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Why make this post? Is a slippery slope really the best argument you have here? NO ONE was asking for account bound levels or rep or gear. This is utterly irrelevant, especially since in the context of bfa it is wrong. We’ve already had account bound rep rewards in bfa. Remember when we needed rep to attune to kings rest and seige of borlaus? Remember when our alts didn’t? Remember when we had to grind magni rep to get 45 item level on our necks? Remember when our alts didn’t? Why were those changes implemented I wonder? Its weird how fast my alts level ap its almost as if someone thought to stick a catch up mechanic to ap progression or something.
People don’t want to make power progression irrelevant, they want one less system of power progression out of the way, because we already have like 5(gear, ap, essences, leggo cloak, professions) Essences have existed for one patch they are not traditional power progression, they are not here to stay, and they shouldn’t be a major deterrent to playing the game, its downright shameful that a fun mechanic like essences are ruined by their acquisition. Those asking for account bound essences are asking for a qol life fix to a heavy handed temporary solution to state of bfa class gameplay, and they are well within their rights to do so.
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I want to see you grinding pathfinder on all your alts.
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no thanks. I like the old model of keeping character progression separate. (Not talking about essence )
So in other words they were still not BIS. Your BIS came from raids, as always.
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I always love posters who move goalposts. Shows they have no arguments.
Also it took you like 2 days to reply and that is all you could come up with?
You’re the one trying to strawman an argument away from account bound essences to gear, so you really shouldn’t try to take the high ground here.