A Treatice on Core Gameplay Loop and Hunter class design

After testing almost every spec in the game on the 9.0 PTR (some healing specs I was not able to thoroughly test because I could not always find a dungeon que), I would like to address some key class design elements that would greatly benefit from change. I will use the Hunter class as the primary focus, since this is the Hunter forum (and I have no wish to write a version of this treatise for each class).

Hunter’s Mark seems to be a source of consternation for a large number of Hunter players, so I will try to be succinct regarding it. As it stands now Hunter’s Mark feels like a punishment, not a reward. If I forget to open with it, or if i need to swap targets, I am not doing even my base damage without Hunter’s Mark applied to the target. Many classes have had different iterations of abilities like this throughout the years, and none of them have ever been well received. It simply is NOT fun having to press an extra button, which does no damage of its own, in order for a player to achieve even baseline DPS. If you are loathe to remove it from the game entirely, I suggest removing it from the global cooldown in the very least.

Marksmanship;
MM has suffered tremendously since the removal of Aspect of the Fox. The option to cast Aimed Shot while moving set the core flow of the spec at its most fun. Since that option has been removed, MM feels like a poor hybrid of a Hunter and a caster. A poor excuse for either. The current design of talents like Lock and Load and Double Tap make a very poor substitution. It simply feels BAD to have to freeze where I am and wait for Aimed Shot’s comparatively massive cast time to finish before I can be mobile again. Hunters are not Mages, they should not feel like a Mage. If you are against making Aimed Shot castable while moving as a baseline, as it should be, consider replacing Lock and Load with Aspect of the Fox. Lock and Load itself has never felt worth taking since it became a talent instead of a passive. The proc chance has always felt far too low. Every other Hunter ability can be cast while moving, Aimed Shot should not be the exception. MM is not a sniper class, this is Warcraft, not Call of Duty. If Legolas can take down 12 orcs while sliding down the stairs on a shield, I should be able to move while casting Aimed Shot.

Beast Mastery;
BM has felt mostly solid for a long time. My main concern with BM is one that I share with several other classes, namely that some of the returning class abilities feel out of place. Arcane Shot feels like it has no use in BM, not when Cobra Shot is the clear choice. Cobra shot is cheaper, does more damage, and reduces the cooldown of Kill Command. Arcane Shot just felt as though it was in the way. BM would be much better served with Steady Shot returning, or any iteration of a directly Focus building ability. Barbed Shot works, but it does not completely negate the lull in the rotation when I run out of Focus.

Survival;
SV is one of the only melee specs in game that does not seem to run straight into a brick wall with its rotation (much more on that latter). SV does seem to suffer from button bloat however, and the return of Steady Shot and Arcane shot seem a poor choice. I could create a macro that equips my bow and then fires Arcane shot or Steady Shot, respectively, but why would I? They do not feel like they have any place in SV.

On the issue of overall class design philosophy:
As stated when I spoke about Survival spec, most melee specs, and some ranged specs, have an underlying design problem that needs to be addressed. Every rotation is the core game-play loop of its respective class and spec, yet many of them have a glaring problem, they hit a brick wall. With a few exceptions like Fury Warriors or Havoc Demon Hunters, the entire flow of many rotations is interrupted by waiting for resource regeneration. Death Knights are a prime example of this. DK’s have always seemed to suffer from enormous periods of lull in each specs’ respective rotation. Sitting and waiting until I am able to use an ability, for any amount of time, is decidedly NOT fun. The game as a whole would benefit enormously from fixing this issue. You could reduce the amount of resources required for each ability across the board, you could increase each classes’ base resource regeneration by whatever amount is necessary to avoid the brick wall. I find it baffling that specs like Fury warrior have an uninterrupted flow, and have for several expansions, but there are whole classes (Rogues) were the lulls in the rotation take up most of the core gameplay loop. This is not fun and it is not good game design.

I hope this treatise has provided some viable solutions and that Blizzard takes a good look at core loop design moving forward.

3 Likes

I disagree with you on this notion. For many hunters the issue with MM and aimed shot is not the in ability to cast it on the move. The issue with aimed shot is the exceedingly long cast with little damage making it feel like it’s not worth the cast time. For much of the game aimed shot has not been castable while moving and it was not an issue because the damage was worth the cast time.

I like being the sniper in the back of the group who has to line up the shot and then boom, huge damage, and having to give up DPS to move, but the damage needs to be worth the cast time. Either Aimed Shot needs it’s cast time reduced or it’s damage cranked way the hell up.

5 Likes

Among many other things, yes. Since people (Xerox or whatever his name is) lose their mind whenever you suggest ARP as a part of MM’s kit, AND any classic gameplay tropes for MM have gone right out the window, why not just make AiS do nature damage? Makes about as much sense as anything else at this point.

SV doesn’t just rely on on just passive focus generation, it has active focus generation from Kill command. What focus issues it does run into aren’t comparable to that of rogues or other classes.

Honestly ArPen isn’t a bad idea. It shores up PvE damage, helps in PvP against plate, but is undervalued against cloth where we are already strong.

Or all three

I’m on board for it to be MM mastery. Just be prepared for a dissertation on why that’s a horrible idea. My favorite argument against it was something about it just being a flat damage increase against bosses because they have set armor, as though the current mastery (and vers, for that matter) doesn’t do exactly that. It’s just a different knob to turn.

From a PvP perspective, I’d REALLY prefer to have Master’s Call and Mortal Strike as baseline/tied to baseline ability. Then you could actually choose a pet for utility instead of the currently mandatory raptor or rodent pick. I personally like both aesthetically, but sacrificing survivability via leech to get mobility and MS is ridiculous. The OTHER option would be to just nerf the bejeezus out of self healing on DPS specs, because it’s OUT OF CONTROL right now.

For SV, the bringing back of Arcane shot and Steady shot seem to be mostly flavor related. If they allowed sv hunters to use their pistol crossbow to shot arcane shot and steady shot (something to do while aspect of the eagle is on CD) then I would argue that there is/was really meaning to arcane shot and steady shot returning to SV, as it is they are fluff abilites at best for SV.

For MM, it seems blizz really wants to go with the “patient sniper” role, i.e… lining up the perfect shot identity which is why there is no more aspect of the fox, no movable aimed shot. I would also guess that if they did allow aimed to be casted on the move then all differentiation from BM is gone (except BM is the dude with 2 pets). I find MM fun on the PTR, the only issue I have is wasted Precise shot procs. It seems that if you use every Precise shot proc then you come close to capping or you do cap on Aimed shot charges. Especially when you have true shot aura up, I assume the purpose is to pump out as many aimed shots as possible, so then you just waste all the Precise shot procs I guess… That being said MM is not my main spec so maybe I am missing something but aside from Precise shot procs overall I find the spec fun.

As MM Mastery, it would affect less abilities - nothing for Arcane Shot, Serpent Sting, Explosive Shot, Chimaera Shot. It might also not affect trinkets and procs that benefit from MM Mastery, but I don’t know how much of that exists currently.

I was thinking more just having Aimed Shot (and only Aimed Shot) innately ignore some armor, maybe Mastery%? There is precedent for that type of mechanic with Enhancement right now, see Stormbringer.

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BM using 1-2 pets with most of their damage dealt by the pet (activated by the Hunter via KC/BC, but the pet is the actual source of the damage) vs MM using Lone Wolf most of the time with all their damage dealt by strong weapon attacks seems like a pretty strong distinction already. MM could stand to be a bit more mobile without encroaching on BM’s turf.

This is accurate. Precise Shots leaves little room for active talents, and you frequently munch charges. As you mentioned, Trueshot in particular is egregious, you literally can’t use any Precise Shots or you overcap on Aimed Shot charges.

So I wonder then where does blizz go with Precise shots from here? The expansion will be delayed till I am guessing late November maybe mid December so I assume we should see some type of changes.

Honestly I’m not sure. There are a few options:

  1. Do nothing to Precise Shots. The base rotation can afford a few active talents, and this is a skill cap issue knowing when to use the charges and when to hold them to prevent capping on Focus or Aimed Shots. Trueshot is an outlier, so fix Trueshot separately.
  2. Change it to always 1 charge per Aimed Shot, increase the benefit from 75% to 100%, adjust spec-wide damage accordingly. This reduces the number of munched charges in the base rotation, making it easier to fit talents, again doesn’t fix Trueshot.
  3. Remove it entirely, buff base Arcane Shot/Multi-Shot damage to compensate. Eliminates the issue, gives MM more teeth on the move, but makes Aimed Shot less essential to the rotation. For context, if you baked in a 50% increase, Arcane Shot would deal 112.5% AP baseline, meaning 2 Arcane Shots deals almost as much as an Aimed Shot. That would cause other issues.
  4. ???

Kind of tired of seeing people talk about steady shot and arcane shot being given as flavor and nothing more. Or how you are not going to use every ability.

I get that. The difference is that you CANT use these abilities as surv. Even if you make weapon swap macros it’s literally counter intuitive to the gameplay of survival. They got rid of warrior stance dancing because having to macro weapon swaps is not how you should have to play a class.

I get like scare beast or eagle eye you won’t always use, but you can press said ability and it works. Poor choice for giving survival those 2 abilities.

What bothers me more is the silence on a dev when talking about this. We have the crossbow for serpent sting and now kill shot. Why couldn’t that same crossbow be used for arcane shot and steady shot?

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I just hate the precise shots mechanic tbh its so bad to me.

Agreed. ArP across all physical abilities (read autoshots) would increase the value of haste, too.

I wish AiS would generate only one, but you could store a number of charges, like 3 or 4. That implementation would only work if some other things changed, though.

I love current mm mastery. Any change removing the increase in range while be a hard no from me.

Honestly at this point I almost think it is a programming issue of “it is easier to program/code all 3 hunter specs receiving steady shot and arcane shot”. Yes I know the explanation sounds ridiculous but again SV has the minicrossbow and yet for whatever reason we can’t allow SV to use their minixbow for arcane shot and steady shot because I guess it would break the game idk…

They basically said that it isn’t intended for SV to use those abilities. And that’s kinda the thing really, the hunter class is the only class which now has to deal with multiple weapon types for it’s different playstyle options.

With “weapon types” I don’t just mean axes + maces. I mean melee weapons put together with ranged weapons.

Physical attacks(based on the use of a weapon) are specifically designed to require certain weapons to be usable. Otherwise, what’s the point? Why even have weapons at all in this game?

And yes, they have adapted Kill Shot for SV. The difference here though is that Kill Shot isn’t just a flavor ability brought back for the sake of class fantasy. Steady Shot and Arcane Shot are.
Heck, BM “can’t” use them either. Steady Shot for BM turns into Barbed Shot and Arcane Shot simply has no use since we already have Cobra Shot.

But they did not give survival those 2 abilities. They gave the class those 2 abilities.

Their goal was to bring back abilities with a focus on the class, not individual specs. Again, if you look at damaging abilities, this simply cannot be done to hunters anymore as, we now have to deal with specs that rely on ranged weapons, but also a spec which relies on melee weapons.

No I’m saying SV is one of the only melee specs in the game that doesn’t have a giant lull in its rotation. BM needs a better way to regenerate Fo is then Barbed Shot. SV doesn’t need Steady Shot or Arcane Shot but has both in 9.0