A proposal for Warsong Gulch

Regarding your first paragraph, as stated before, I think that’s an unfair standard for suggestions generally. The nature of suggestions in general assumes that something is wrong and needs to change. Forcing people to engage in Battleground or Raid content if they are endgame PVErs or PVPers respectively ranks among the items that I think are wrong and need to change.

Regarding your second, you mention relevance to what an expansion’s story would be. That’s another item that I take issue with. I prefer the vanilla model - where you can have a conflict in Ashenvale, an only marginally connected issue in Arathi, a completely disconnected conflict in Silithus, Dragons in the Burning Steppes to go fight, Demons in the blasted lands. Which of these concerns is the most important and should attract your attention? That should be up to you.

This is a world. It in no way needs to be wrapped up in a single, all encompassing expansion narrative - and I would argue that the game was better when it wasn’t.

One final note about Cataclysm: I think you’re referring to Malfurion and the Druids’ refusal to even comment on what was happening in Ashenvale. That is a different thing from having disconnected conflicts. No one wondered why the characters in Uldum didn’t seem to be concerned with the faction war - but none of them were the co-leaders of a playable race whose lands were being invaded. There’s important context missing from the application of that situation to the principle.

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Silithus was actually strange in context. Painted as the unification of the forces of Kalimdor, but also the Alliance and Horde are still at war, so kill each other for Silithyst. The Cenarions were ignoring Warsong Gulch all the same in vanilla as they were in Cataclysm, it just happened that their big name of Malfurion was still asleep at the time, so that kept him out of the neutral spotlight.

Uldum was a strange zone, but it did at least try to start with some separate NPCs between the factions before falling back on its pop culture quests. Though, even then, Brann and affiliates had always also been NPCs that the Horde was just expected to quest with regardless of faction conflict, going as far back as vanilla, though obviously most prominently pushed in Wrath. In Draenor Horde players could even recruit Harrison Jones to their Garrisons despite also have quests to kill him in Ashran. It was less that any of that didn’t seem concerned with the faction war as it was not concerned with anything at all.

But throughout the rest of Cataclysm people were questioning why the Earthen Ring wasn’t saying anything about the Horde’s desecration of the lands same as they were complaining about Cenarion Circle staying neutral. And that very same complaint came up in BfA, though more extreme, given the whole world bleeding out storyline that Blizzard still hasn’t actually resolved.

This is a world indeed, but as such much of the story is interconnected in one way or another, and disconnects can be more jarring than not.

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I agree that it’s interconnected, and attention has to be paid to those linkages. I think for example that Malfurion should have in some way commented on Ashenvale and why he couldn’t participate in it, just to close the loop - but it became a problem because he seemed to adamantly refuse to acknowledge it as an issue.

I don’t think that this undoes the merit of the overall model, however. It’s just a statement that a certain amount of work has to be done to make it clean.

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I think that is ultimately why they had Malfurion so involved in the War of the Thorns and the Darkshore Warfront. Along with a bit of teasing towards the people who might have had a reaction of “Oh my gosh! Are they finally going to kill him like I’ve been calling for all this time?!” that Blizzard than flipped instead to have Malfurion be among the most prominent defenders of the Night Elves against the Horde to instead address the complains of Malfurion’s neutrality that way.

Why would anyone want this in pvp? Keep BG’s for killing players, not questing.

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I emphatically and with any love I still have for this franchise reject this proposition. I’ve been a member of the Cenarion Circle since before a decent chunk of the current playerbase were born. I farmed morrowgrain in Vanilla. Grinded Cenarion rep in BC to get the Guardian of Cenarius title that is still this character’s primary title today in spite of having dozens of others. I roleplay three separate Cenarion Circle loyalists who do not consider themselves a part of their faction, including two Horde.

All my most cherished memories of my early days of this game involve my first journeys to Moonglade and then later Hyjal to defend Nordrassil. Malfurion remains one of my favorite lore characters and I loved the fact I could still interact with him no matter my race of choice. I love Ursoc (RIP) and Malorne and even Cenarius just as much as I love the loa of Zandalar. Mylune is one of my favorite minor NPCs and I absolutely adore working with her whenever she shows up.

The day I am told I can’t be a part of the Cenarion Circle anymore is the day I quit this game and never look back. I know it probably seems like too much of an emotional investment in a faction that rarely gets any spotlight but dangit, I’ve mained druid since my very first character well over a decade ago. It is as much a part of my WoW identity as being a night elf seems to be for you.

I hope this was sufficient to explain why I feel so strongly about this.

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Hrmm, nice, hrmm i have a question!

How do you feel about hyjal and if it would go full n11 again?

I would very much dislike that, which is a stance I’ve spoken on before. Nordrassil, to me, is the single biggest symbol of unification on Azeroth. It is the one thing all factions could agree to protect, and the tenuous peace between the Horde and the Alliance was bought with the blood and honor of the people who threw down their lives to protect it and the world.

It belonging to a single faction rubs me the wrong way. It feels like forgetting everything that happened in WC3.

But I also know I am in the minority on that sentiment these days.

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I don’t understand it, to be honest, nordrassil is after all, aswell as Hyjal, the home of the nightelfs, since over 10.000 years.

Another question, and what is your position as cc-druid rpler about ashenvale?

I mean, its no easy task to be a cc druid this days

Technically Hyjal is home of the wild gods. The night elves were charged with protecting Nordrassil, but they aren’t alone in that duty anymore. This isn’t a matter of land rights. It is about Azeroth as a whole.

Both as a Cenarion druid and a Horde member Ashenvale belongs to the night elves and it is dumb that we keep fighting over it.

Though as a player Warsong Gulch is my favorite BG. I love capture the flag as a druid.

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From this pov, it makes sense, but after bfa, i would understand if the hordedruids are bannished from hyjal for a certain period of time(not kicked out from the cc)

Blizz don’t show us the change of things, but i think: to be an horderace cc member was before bfa difficulty, but now its almost impossible to feel…conected to this faction. I play only one cc druid, an nightelf, but he don’t trust any hordemember anymore and is even part of the blackmoonarmy (like Malfurion)

But i have my thornspeaker and my zandalaridruid aswell

Warsonggulch is my favorite bg aswell^^

WSG is certainly a favorite for many. I’m weird and like Kotmogu, though I have many fond memories of OG AV and Wintergrasp.

Truthfully, I think this is why attaching story to WoW BG is doomed to fail. A lot of us aren’t going to BGs for some epic win over the other faction, but just for shenanigans and to get a few giggles at the other teams expense (Which can just as easily be groans of frustration when you lose).

I’m there to have fun: Using Path of Frost to carry the flag over river in Twin Peaks, doing donuts in a catapult in Wintergrasp with flamethrower going, dancing with the other idiot who stayed with me to D farm in Arathi, yanking the first caster that meanders too close into the meatgrinder that is my team in Ashran. Things like that.

Can story enhance different modes? Sure. Your example of League stands up well enough for that as it is a good standalone experience, but when you kill a rival of your character and you hear a voice-line talking junk you get a good giggle (Death to Seraphine, justice for Skarner and the Brackern! Vote Skarner for rework plz!).

However, it can also be a demotivation if done incorrectly. All that goofy stuff I do in the bg, all the outplays that put a smile on my face suddenly vanish if an NPC rolls up and starts screaming “For Teldrassil” at me. Now I have the tree shoved in my face again and now I’m remembering BFA and the ride it took me on. Why do I know I’ll think this way? Because it already happened in the Darkshore Warfront when Maiev did the exact same thing. I don’t want to PVP to feel shame or like a villain.

At this stage in the game, I don’t think that’s healthy. Best to leave all of these battlegrounds in their respective eras where we can enjoy them for what they are. Nathanos trash-talking and all.

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While I agree with your overall sentiment I dunno about this one. Nathanos kind of ticks me off in that BG now that I know the guy turns traitor in the very next expansion from when the BG was introduced.

Insanely short sighted planning on Blizzard’s part. If they really do plan their expansions in advanced that means they knew Nathanos and Sylvanas were going to turn traitor and decided the Horde should just… Have to listen to a traitor shout orders at them for the rest of time.

Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m furious that Nate is our Seething Shore announcer when Blizz knew full well that they were going to both have him turn on us and kill him off. Every time I get into the BG I grumble for a moment, but take solace that Seething is forever locked in the timeline as BFA. Agmar would have been a much better pick. Whatever happened to that guy?

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I support your idea. Its creative. Were still fighting for warsong gulch. So you can make a story for it.

I should start by saying that I’m one of those people who doesn’t PVP. I don’t enjoy it, and I also suck at it. (Maybe if I liked it more, I’d suck at it less—or maybe if I sucked at it less, I’d like it more.) But that probably doesn’t really matter when you’re talking about story and NPCs anyway. For whatever it’s worth, here’s my honest take, and I make no claims to speak for anyone but myself here:

I don’t enjoy fighting against Alliance commanders whose primary motive for fighting me is revenge for suffering that they have gone through at the hands of the Horde, particularly the modern Horde. Once upon a time, I could have felt okay about being against an Admiral Rodgers or a Leyara—back in the day when it genuinely seemed to be a cycle of hatred fed by both sides—but the whole Jaina fiasco has completely drained me of the ability to be enthusiastic about it.

This isn’t just theory. I know this from my experience with the Battle for Lordaeron at the beginning of BfA. If I couldn’t enjoy defending Undercity from invasion because of the constant drumbeat of “We deserve this” in my head, then I don’t see how this would be any different. That was also framed as protecting something precious to us, something that we would objectively see as worth defending, but it fell flat. I don’t know how the game could make me feel more investment in throwaway NPC civilians than in a place where I did some of my early questing and that I still visited every Hallow’s End.

I fear this is an insurmountable problem, because I know that the entire goal of the Alliance-side scenario is to provide the sense of getting revenge for past wrongs that the PVE storyline didn’t give you.

I give you credit for making a genuine effort to make both sides happy. If this scenario had appeared several expansions ago, before things went so sour, it might even have worked for both sides. It could have been a fine battleground story circa MoP; it might even have worked in Legion. But I don’t think it can work for Horde players who are invested in the story right now, after BfA, with the state the story is currently in.

And maybe it doesn’t have to? I’m sure there are lots of Horde players who would just put on their red shirts and go fight Team Blue because they find it fun—enough to provide satisfying opposition to the Alliance PVPers who are in it for the story. Maybe just writing the story for them is the best you can do.

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I hear you, friend. I have/used to have similar feelings about Dalaran. Ground my rep to exalted with the Kirin Tor, learned their special spells, wore their ring. Yes, I know all the arguments about why I shouldn’t be attached to it, but you just can’t completely undo the effect it had on starry-eyed WotLK-era me.

It’s been tainted somewhat by what happened in MoP and Legion—I felt super-sad when I realized that I couldn’t get excited about being invited to join the ultra-exclusive Dalaran Defense League in the Legion order hall—but I still cling to the sense of ownership I originally felt, and my attachment to the possibility Dalaran once represented for being a rare example of true interfactional cooperation. I would never wish anything similar on you and the Cenarion Circle.

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