Might help if you articulate where you are coming from, in a succinct manner. From what I can tell, this is one of the rare healthy debates. Just some wires are getting crossed.
No Iâm directly stating that your conclusions about me are false and that Iâm not really interested in that discussion any further.
So recoup time by spending more time⌠make it make sense.
Not a fan. Timed content has a firm timer, and you either make it or you donât. Thereâs nothing wrong with a bricked key, but everything wrong with peoplesâ attitudes towards it. Bricked keys are already very lenient with whatâs lost for not timing. What used to be a gray, useless item is now simply one level lower.
I know you said this, but part of it is in fact because it was new. We had nothing to compare it to, no similar type of gameplay in WoW. There wasnât much to complain about. People were really excited about the idea of infinitely scaling dungeon difficulty and hit the ground running with it.
I also agree that Legion keys were incredibly easy compared to now, in conjunction with our characters being super OP. I remember doing up to 20s in Legion while being absolute dog water at the game.
Now into more speculative territory - moving into BFA from Legion, keys felt a lot more punishing. They introduced seasonal affixes, dungeons were overtuned, and we got a stat squish on top of it. Keys in BFA started to feel challenging as they worked out the kinks of what worked for timed content and what didnât. They introduced affixes like Explosives, Necrotic, and Afflicted to offer new challenges, and it ended up unfairly affecting the different roles.
I think since Legion, they have continued to spearhead the philosophy of âhow can we make this harder?â as players got better and continued to push higher, some even ditching raiding altogether to run M+ full time.
This is all just my opinion, of course. M+ has been one big experiment for the past 8 years. I have no doubt that delves will go through a similar process, and what we are seeing now with delves is just the first iteration of whatâs to come.
I havenât concluded anything about you. Iâve made commentary on a suggested change that I donât think would at all improve the situation in keys.
I donât think I really need to.
I was proposing a solution that would make m+ more in line with how I want to play m+, without realizing that itâs not aligned with the m+ community or at least the people here on the forums interested in talking about m+.
So yea, I think maybe Iâll just find something else to do and thank the ones of you here who were nice enough to discuss ideas instead attacking people.
Interesting idea, I donât know, but wouldnât that incentivize tanks not to care so much about having a precise route since it wouldnât matter that much if you went over count because it would just take time off the timer?
I also donât know if it would do anything about the trigger happy leaver. I think many of these people assume that early failure is going to be an indication of whatâs going to happen laterâŚwhich is sometimes true but not always. I always like to see a couple pulls before I make the determination that it was just an early fluke or if the group is actually going to struggle. Also, people can be bad at judging what is and isnât able to be timed and that poor judgment would still be present with your idea.
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Rather than overcomplicating M+ with new design mechanics Iâd rather they just scrap timing keys up to a certain level and make timing relevant for specific things like portals, achievements, etc.
Timing keys, even up to 10, isnât complicated or any massive achievement to celebrate. Iâd probably only make timing relevant at 9 solely so people canât entirely fail upwards into myth track vault, but beyond that the timer almost doesnât matter prior to those levels and once you break past 10 the only real reason to run those keys is specifically for timing for rating.
People donât like suggestions involving altering or removing timers because M+ is the timer. Youâre suggesting changing the most fundamental aspect of the content. Every bit of M+ meta revolves around that timer and how to complete the run as quickly and efficiently as possible. So yeah, not surprised this idea wasnât well received.
Nah, thatâs a race to the bottom.
You can wipe like 6 times in a +2 and time, itâs more than fine.
It is in a sense. Like the keys are ultimately such pushovers the timer doesnât matter, but by extension if the timer is literally such a joke then why does it even exist? And furthermore I donât get how itâs a race to the bottom if weâre both acknowledging how irrelevant the timer is.
Because people manage to fail, and itâs to keep those people out.
Timer is a joke, low bar, and there are still people beneath it.
Iâd really love to see the percentage if failed 2s cause I doubt itâs enough to justify this stance up to a certain key level.
The point about keeping people out at a certain level can be argued, but I donât think we need to worry about what is going on in the trenches of keys.
If the timer does not effect 2s, then what purpose is there in removing it?
but I donât think we need to worry about what is going on in the trenches of keys.
So their game experience shouldnât matter?
I ran this after I got Resil +12 lol.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-tww-3/5624118-2-arakara-city-of-echoes
It is HIGHLY unfeasible that time refunded would justify the time spent killing âover percentâ trash in the first place. Especially in double digit key ranges when you got fortified + natural key scaling working against you. Like what add 1 minute to a timer on a trash pack that took 2+ mins to clear because itâs horribly inefficient pull in the first place hence why nobody goes for it in the first place?
If you want mythic+ to be ânicerâ to bads, then it should throw pity bones at people who the key is progression for and the check should be account wide so it isnât just cheesed with people inviting their friends trash alts. But this HUGELY goes against the spirit of the gamemode and this kind of tactic should not exist in anything remotely competitive (which would probably be where hero track and/or gilded crests start dropping).
Itâs not irrelevant, just low stakes.
Donât allow your experience to make you forget what itâs like to be a noob. People still fail 2s. They make a heck of a lot of errors and they go over time. Whatâs irrelevant to you isnât to new M+ players.
I was just in a failed 2 last night on my baby alt. Tank clearly did not know what he was doing at all and bricked the key. No big deal. It just tells him to keep practicing and that heâs not ready to progress. Just because the majority of M+ players are playing higher than this, doesnât mean the âtrenchesâ should be disregarded. Theyâre still an important stepping stone for a lot of people.
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Should probably throw it in a dumpster and burn it.
No. The system is fine as is.
To be blunt the logic doesnât go both ways. Acknowledging irrelevancy doesnât justify the flipside that because something is irrelevant it therefore doesnât need to be altered. My point is irrelevant things donât need to stay in the game.
However that being said, the basis of my stance is based around the idea of layering M+ mechanics a little bit more and low keys where people may be apprehensive about being in a timed dungeon may be more willing to dip their toes into M+ if some portion of it does not have timing to it so they have a space to learn without the anxiety of timing. Maybe timing comes back sooker than 9 though.
Just my opinion though.
I donât think removing the timer will make it worse.
I mean I genuinely am curious about a percent of failure in low keys not anecdotal experiences. Personally in S2 I pugged keys all the way to 3k and only failed a key starting at 7. I did have one really close 3 or 4 though.
As someone who took a break between SL until S2 TWW I came back super anxious about doing keys and getting chewed out for not being familiar about them. And I did get some when I got into the 7-9 range and was supposed to understand proper lust times.
Iâm not a noob in the sense of not knowing how to play, but I was very green to M+ coming back and when I did M+ in SL it was really only for a weekly vault slot since I was raiding.
I just play a lowbie M+ right now at +8/+9. Most of my brick keys due to /abandon on few attempts is⌠bad DPS in a situation when I cant carry the PuG I joined. Even one wipe that I think we could still time it, those players voted for /abandon.
I dont push myself on +10 just to be denied as there are tons of players above my ilevel.
So I am joining lowbie keys where I am wanted but most of those keys, the keyholder is a carry⌠low ilevel/low M Score. But I am okay with them becoz I am overgeared on those keys. And besides, Turboboosts is near. +10 would be the new +12 soon.