Honestly between him feeling jealous and hanging out with a sex predator with an overly elaborate hat, his complete inexperience with women in regards to Thalyssra comes off less endearing and more
“… Is Lor’themar an incel?”
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Zelling wasn’t being touted as the potential new Forsaken leader. Nor was he a perfectly preserved Light Zombie. The same is true of the new Forsaken from Pyrewood etc.
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Sylvanas committed several genocides under her regime. Pointing these out and calling it for what it is. Seems to be the problem for you and those who like using her established themes and autocratic leadership with a cult of personality. Much of the Forsaken mantras developed by her are fascistic and deeply flawed. She’s very much akin to the among the worst autocratic authoritarian dictators in history. Forsaken have devolved their society into one that worshipped Sylvanas and justified every depravity and whim under the guise, “Free will” ignoring the consequences their actions bring. From cannibalism to torture and inhuman experiments.
People like you are the ones who are ignoring the facts of what the Forsaken did. The game needs to move past their crimes against humanity, Worgen and the night elves. They need a new leader who after all the actions committed by the previous government is held accountable and the people who were misled begin their atonement.
That’s where we are disagreeing. You don’t want to reconcile and you don’t want a shift in direction. I’m no less passionate Forsaken player than you…
I remember playing on my forsaken priest doing the prelaunch event for the Burning of Teldrassil and being disgusted. I eventually had to retire my character because I could no longer relate with the story. The Horde crossed so many lines since Cata and the Forsaken kept going further and further into depravity, needless evil and it got tiring. Being evil for evil’s sake can only be taken so far. I enjoyed the stories the Forsaken have, but the ones I find most impactful are the ones where they’re treated like broken people, trying to move on and past their trauma.
How do you justify the events since Cata to present? How do you justify their shift in themes and the consequences of Sylvanas? I think the end of BFA having the Sylvanas supporters in chains. Was a good display in-game, but they needed to show that the undead will not be the same as they were and can’t ever be again.
To better give context of what I mean… do you remember the attack on Undercity and defeating Varimathras? After the event I never liked going into Undercity seeing the orcish guards who replaced the abominations I first met in Bc. By WOTLK, I understood why Thrall sent them. It was to remind the people that the Forsaken were on thin ice. I had hope that during the Cataclysm the narrative would change we would see more undead like those found in the Argent Crusade. Though the narrative changed I loved the Silverpine to Hillsbrad Foothills quest lines. Probably some of the best story in the game.
By Legion and BFA it became a parody and it culminated with defeat. The Forsaken deserve a better leader. Calia Menethil is that person and we can agree to disagree. I feel like this back and forth shows how biases build into themselves and tribalism makes these back and forth so toxic. I don’t troll and I don’t like the whole debate because it doesn’t matter and isn’t going to change the direction we appear to be going. I’m going to be hopeful for a better future for the undead. However I won’t be surprised if Blizzard leaves nobody happy with what they do.
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I think more simply the past ten years of story has been an exponential curve of a trainwreck and the writers cling to their narrative standards of the 90s and 80s which is unsustainable for the 2020s and the game’s dwindling and aging playerbase.
The game as a whole needs a hard reset or a sufficient fast forward so as to function as a reset.
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I agree. The story is dated and I really wanted a timeskip post Shadowlands. So long as Activision was concerned if it’s profitable keep doing it. Maybe Microsoft will invest in rebuilding WoW from the ground up. Not just in graphics, but in story. Here’s hoping that 5 years down the road aren’t as bad as the 5 years prior.
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I know this may be a shock to some people. But the Buring of Teldrassil happened almost FOUR years ago.
I wish people would stop sensationalizing this one story point. This game commits an act of mass murder every expansion.
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As much as I loved the era of guitar riffs and hair flips being the pinnacle of high drama, things have to have a bit more meaning in an MMO.
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The thing is I honestly think their storytelling was superior in 2004. One aspect of Classic that I thought held up was the world. I forgot how fun it was to explore on foot, especially when even minor NPCs posed a threat and stuff like rainstorms in STV could mask an enemy player until they were right in front of you. I know the geography of Azeroth better than that of my home state so I really didn’t believe I could still find it mysterious and intriguing but somehow it managed.
It works because the story is on the world and your journey through it. Hero characters like Sylvanas and Thrall come up very sporadically and it feels special when they have a quest for you. The villains are a true rogue’s gallery that aren’t exactly groundbreaking. But tropes exist for a reason and turns out a simple D&D module threat like a gigantic dragon or a Lich and his flying fortress are fun to fight. And the simplicity means you don’t have to explain what their deal is. I’d never heard of the Dragonflights before Vanilla and I was never confused about how or why Onxyia was a threat.
Modern WoW though has had one competent expansion story since 2014. Legion had it’s ups and downs but it’s certainly coherent. You start getting your teeth kicked in at the Broken Shore, and the story is about building up enough power to eventually take the fight to Argus.
I can’t speak to WoD as I haven’t played it through but it doesn’t exactly have a good reputation. BFA starts with the Alliance and Horde in open conflict and ends with fighting the Black Empire. N’Zoth had nothing to do with Sylvanas or the faction conflict. SL starts with us jumping into hell to chase Sylvanas and ends with us battling a DK tier set near the universe’s factory reset button.
I really, really miss when we were just Johnny Adventurer, exploring some new zones and having to fight a villain of the week every new patch.
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Can I sign up for this list too?
Sure thing.
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how is that dumb, the guys at the top know its all a joke and that it’s silly as heck to rival over petty differences and the value of not being greedy malicious survival brained muppets
it’s prescient, forward thinking and shows thrall is smart and is willing to get the job done even if the job is stupid bad or whatever
like everyone there could have just thrown up their hands and peaced out to elsewhere in the cosmos or w/e “Not my problem” and come up with a bunch of excuses not to work together or defend thunderbluff which is a really solid analogue to IRL lawl RIP taurenbros
yeesh
Did you miss the entire context of the conversation?
Thrall asked Jaina what makes this time any different than the others. The others times aren’t the mistakes of generations past, but literally a couple of years ago.
Every time the Alliance and Horde sign a peace treaty and then the Horde goes crazy and commits mass murder and then the Alliance forgives them.
Jaina’s response to this insane plot is “we are”, this doesn’t work because these people are the same people that perpetuated the war. It makes no sense.
If Thrall and Saurfang are so concerned by doing the right thing they had ample time and opportunity to stop Garrosh or Sylvanas. They just didn’t do it.
Because it’s not about the horde and alliance it’s about Jaina and Thrall (the video, they are friends now, and will forever be). They are different. They don’t represent the Horde and Alliance anymore. They are no longer truely defined by their faction or what the people in their faction want to do or are doing.
Perhaps they genuinely feel like they’re not the leaders that can chose for the horde and alliance and that everything they do to make the world better gets subverted by the petty dramas within each faction. Be it Greymane, or Sylvanus, or whatever. Who’s next?
If the story makes a genocidal villain out of the next horde or alliance leader to step outa line that says “My power is is indominiable! There is no where to hide! The end is inevitable”. That’s great… just great.
We need a good villain. One that isn’t corrupted by old gods or gone crazy over grief and trauma. Maybe one that thinks they are doing the world good. Or has another goal in mind that isn’t “break and destroy everything or make people submit to my will”. Or how about instead of one villian, several interacting outside of the factions. And let horde/alliance players deal with their beef by each choosing sides. Sides not limited to horde or alliance factions, external factions that pressure the player into making decisions about who the bad guys are in the expansion.
I don’t know if you are an advocate for the Horde Vs Alliance conflict, how do we really keep that going without falling into cartoon villiany at this point… the cannon shoots Stormwind and now the goblins are the bad guys because a Bilgewater employ slipped in a puddle on the floor and bumped into the trigger.
Anyway wow was always a comical game too so something like that could work. I don’t want it to happen though. I would much rather an interesting villian, at least give us an Irenicus (although too soon after Zovaal). Give us some exposition too. Not some “mysterious bigger fish”. Although wow is based in warhammer and lovecraft so they already are emmenantly entangled with the bigger fish trope. It could be steered away from the firster firstest most original Zovaal bad guy who shall not be named Garrosh Sylvanus… and if u think about it even Gul’dan was just an angry manchild as Sylvanus would put it. So she became exactly what she hated. And that is how it goes.
Thats my 4k cp
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The Horde has literally destroyed 3 kingdoms, committed mass murder several times. And the people responsible are still walking around in the Horde. I don’t understand how you can call this a petty drama.
And its not like this was narratively decades or hundreds of years ago and people still clinging to old hatreds. This is basically the Horde being an existential threat at every level for the Alliance and because 1 warchief was replaced all the other participants have no responsibility is just baffling.
We have already fallen into cartoon villainy. Thats what the Sylvanas Arc has been.
What I am arguing for here is rather than rhetoric or simply giving a pass to the Horde for the 5th time we actually address what they did and repair the damage to the Alliance.
But I understand certain players are not interested in repairing narrative… certainly not where Alliance is concerned, just move on and let the issues go ignored or just dunk on them even harder than before.
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I honestly don’t think it can be. What are we going to do have a patch where the entire horde council gets wiped out by angry alliance teleporting assassins. And right back to square 1? Jaina is like OMmgosh I’m not ddoing any more genocides peaces out. Thrall cries and is like welp, ya’ll done did it, I am not gonna do this anymore, later alligators back to Jesus Space Thrall, maybe he joins the legion of the light and becomes the first lightforged orc in a redemption arc for all the stuff he didn’t do.
Greymane got his resolution with Sylvanus. The night elves and undead both lost out. Bigly. On both sides. It wasn’t just Teldrassil that got wrecked. The humans have several kingdoms to rebuild if ever. They just got started in Stromgarde and maybe they can make alliances with the horde there.
I have a feeling in DF tho, it will be a ‘race to the most powerful artifact to see which side wins ultimate power’.
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No… its basically Jaina and Thrall not standing shoulder to shoulder. And Jaina asking Thrall why didn’t he show up to help her when she needed him? Thrall could have but didn’t. That was failure on his part.
Instead, SHE has to console HIM. Its mind blowing.
You know what would have helped BFA a lot? For Thrall to acknowledge his failures, address the hypocrisies of the Horde. For Saurfang to not lecture us on where our home is… which would have been super handy when he was slaughtering his way through Ashenvale to Teldrassil but to actually own up to Horde’s failures and what they need to do now to fix it. For Alliance characters to actually acknowledge that and present a path forward rather than make some idiotic comparisons that the Alliance is just as worse.
This “we forgive you and we are big family in one world” is insane when one family member is constantly trying to kill you.
Genn is the only character I can actually respect. He says what should be said by every alliance character.
Genn actually says to Lorthemar if the victims feel any solace with Sylvanas gone. It seems at least one person in the writing team understands you can’t just hand wave this away with one scapegoat.
I want the humans, the worgen, the night elves all to rebuild, and reTAKE what is theirs by pushing out the people responsible in taking them away in the first place.
And for any future story to address the Horde as the massive monstrous threats that they are.
However for players its different, we are champions and above all this nonsense, we got big reputations that proceeds us and we get special treatment by NPCs. (To allow crossplay)
But the narrative is clear, that if forsaken dared to pop their heads in Gilneas they would be eliminated on sight rather than welcomed as friends.
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I wish you guys would jumnp off of “Calia’s pretty so she can’t be forsaken!!”
Like, it’s beyond clear that the entire reason Calia is pretty is because Sylvanas was pretty and they were trying to preserve the dichotomy that Sylvanas/Nathanos provided with the forsaken leadership.
Calia’s faults are many but “she’s pretty!!!” is not remotely one of them.
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Thrall can’t humanize the Horde or specifically the Forsaken who where once humans.
Thrall would have to go full Yrel. Jaina is done committing genocides over theramore bombs because a lot of innocents die too.
The alliance is certainly not squeaky clean itself. We cannot keep treating everyone in the horde or alliance as the same. The horde has deep flaws. So too doesn’t the alliance. And Greymane is like the worst faction leader ever he basically caused the downfall of his kingdom by letting himself be manipulated into turtling during the scourge war. He has the blood of Lorderoneans and other humans on his hands for that. Many of whom later became Forsaken after being finally freed from the horde.
Teldrassil, the night elves. I don’t think they deserved it. The entire horde responsible? Naw.
Saurfang regretted his blind loyalty to Sylvanus and paid the price in his life. His spirit now bound to Varyian’s blade. Shalamayne. Two spirits bound by valor, honor, and sacrifice.
To say Saurfang and all the horde are monsters is to dehumanize them and dismiss any growth or good from them. The only reason the legion could be defeated was because many in the horde and alliance where willing to work towards a common good. Inspite of Sylvanus and Greymane.
What do you propose we do with the remaining horde who eventually turned away from Sylvanus. Throw them in camps? Kill what remains of their leadership in retribution? Bomb orgrimmar?
I would love to see questlines where the bad actors in both camps. Alliance or horde are found out. Evidence laid bare, and they are improlisoned and lose their leadership positions. That usually only happens when there is a victor. I’d also love to see the horde an alliance do this themselves in order to hold themselves accountable. Maybe an exchange of war criminals so each side could give up their own in a gesture of honor and in turn get those who wronged them so that each side should see justice. It doesn’t matter who was wronged more. Both where. Was the alliance the most wronged? The night elves? Most recently? Sure. Did most of the soldiers and Sylvanus followers die or lose their positions in the horde? Actually yes when we Orgrimar was retaken. Are there a few still out there? Sure. Do we need to go to war with the horde and kill more innocents to make the Alliance feel better or have justice? No. It’s insane.
And Jaina and Thrall both know how ludicrously crazy it is. They’ll still stay friends though now that they’ve finally put all of that behind. As many have. Both horde and Alliance. I don’t see Tauren, horde trolls, vulpera as “the enemy” or an existential threat. And I value the strength and valor of many Orcs.
I’m sus with undead and blood elves. More so than void elves and gnomes. They can’t all be bad though. Some where there in our ranks vs the Lich King. Deathwing. The legion. And have proved themselves.
I think we should move away from the narrative that all of the horde is responsible for Teldrassil. Or address it as patently false. It was bad storytelling. Let’s not make it the central narrative between the horde and alliance. We can show where there was real genuine dissent among the rank and file of the horde.
A real Warhammer mmo does exist besides wow. It’s central focus is faction pvp. That’s the story many want. It’s not the story of WoW though. Not since WC3.
What are you talking about?
The forsaken are responsible for that fall of Gilneas, not Greymane.
The entire Horde is indeed responsible and doubly so by standing with Sylvanas at Lordaeron.
Way too late, he should have done something at Lordaeron. He has absolutely zero grounds to lecture anyone about honor, home or unity.
To the Alliance they are indeed monsters. You have forsaken doing human experiments, blighting forests and towns and kingdoms, you got trolls and orcs torturing night elves in darkshore. If you want to humanize the Horde than actually have them do things that humanize them.
I have literally just told you. It seems for you the Horde actually owning up to their mistakes is tantamount to their eradication.
The Alliance’s crimes are jaywalking being compared to first degree murder. They are not the same. This is the same exact problem I described earlier that you are trying to create equivalency where there is none.
fixed that for you.
No no no. Jaina put it behind her, Thrall is 100% responsible for what Garrosh did, Jaina asked for help and Thrall ignored her. What happened there is on his shoulders. You are once again hand waving away incredible failure by the Horde without it actually being addressed. Instead of keep trying to make a strawman out of my point that the entire Horde needs to be culled actually adress what I am saying that Thrall has to make a big gesture to address his failure to her.
You can’t just say “OH THEY MOVED ON!!!” without actually explaining why.
Yeah they had plenty of that at Teldrassil.
How about the Horde actually addresses it and differentiates themselves from this darker past instead of gaslighting players that the Horde didn’t march with Sylvanas at Teldrassil and then march to her defense at Lordaeron and then fight an entire war along side her until SHE abandoned THEM.
Agreed. So stop defending it by supporting insane plot points like Jaina having multiple personality disorder and she as the victim has to play support for Thrall. The guy responsible for Garrosh and everything that happened because he had a savior complex for an expansion.
Let me TDLR it for you.
At the end of the MoP and BFA the Horde never actually answered for what they did. They never justified themselves or make any gestures of good will. In every cinematic they did more to gaslight or dodge the issue rather than address it.
All Horde do not need to die to make Alliance fans happy.
What needs to happen is when Jaina and Thrall meet, it is Thrall that is apologetic and tries to mend fences with Jaina. Because he is the one that screwed up.
Not all Horde is bad? Not all of them are pro-baby killer in chief?
Great. Lets have the Horde, Lorthemar for example actually explain in the wake of Teldrassil WHY he stood with Sylvanas and it took Baine’s arrest to make him finally move and do something.
Saurfang should not be the one lecturing us on where our home is. It should be the young troll trying to consol a depressed and shamed saurfang and an angry Jaina.
Let him appeal this case rather than Saurfang… the guy who has killed so many innocents stand there and lecture us on morality at the 11th hour.
For the Alliance to stop behaving like revolving doors but actually have some small measure of self respect and stand for their issues. Genn is the one character that does this and I love him (and whoever writes for him) for it.
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No one is saying Calia can’t be Forsaken because she is pretty.
She can’t be Forsaken because she doesn’t share the same cultural experience as the Forsaken. Forsaken is a culture. In this case, it’s a culture of oppression and ostracization.
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