Even though I’d taken advantage of pre-mades plenty of times, the fix to kill or limit them gives us a much more fair version of the BG.
Once the Horde adapted to the initial Alliance strategies, I noticed a lot of the old vanilla patterns return. As of this morning, it’s looking more like Classic WoW AV gameplay - a serious geographical advantage for the Horde. I’ll do this as a comparison of all the key strategic locations in AV.
Captains:
There is a serious disparity in the difficulty level between Galv and Balinda. The size team required kill each is drastically different. This carries significant ramifications for the remainder of the match - honor, rep, and faction buff.
STONEHEARTH/ICEBLOOD:
Graveyards
- The rez point for Stonehearth is tucked well behind a chokepoint with the flag outside of it. At IB, rezzers can easily escape in the most advantageous route for offense. The SH GY can be passed entirely by horde, if necessary, promoting more offensive advantage since SH lacks the corresponding choke point if IB.
Towers
-
IB towers optimally placed to cover their choke points
-
Horde archers more concentrated than Alliance, giving more effective fire.
-
SH bunker provides no tactical value for Alliance
Chokepoints
-
IB has one definite choke point in front of its GY, which is easily bypassed for Horde moving north to offense, or to outflank Alliance attacking the choke point.
-
SH has one definite choke point, which is behind its GY. Making defense even more difficult is the fact that the defenders must fight uphill (creating a game mechanic disadvantage for defense). There is no corresponding way for Alliance to bypass this point as is for Horde at IB.
<<<THE IB/SH DISPARITIES ARE THE MOST CRITICAL TO THE OVERALL BALANCE OF THE BG.>>>
FROSTWOLF/STORMPIKE GRAVEYARDS
Though both very different in layout, I consider these two points roughly equal, in the interest of saving space.
FACTION BASES
-
Frostwolf has three choke points, the third choke point being non-bypassable. This final defense sits atop steep hill (with a game mechanic advantage) covered by mutually supporting towers. This final layer of defense - particularly the tower placement - means that fewer players are necessary for defense (again, promoting offense), or that a large horde group can hold off almost any Alliance attack. These towers are also in range of the Alliance pull area, giving returning defenders an excellent base of fire on Alliance. Returning Horde players from the spawn point have comparatively little ground to cross occupied by enemies.
-
Dun Baldar has one choke point, which is bypassed back a “back door”. DB’s choke point is long, providing Alliance their first significant defensive advantage, but is only covered by one bunker until the very end. Neither alliance bunker provides players a tactical benefit in the defense of the base, unlike the FW towers. To cover the DB’s lone choke point, players must leave the North Bunker. The South Bunker is almost tactically worthless, and neither provides returning players a base from which to attack the Horde pull area. The distance that returning Alliance players must cover from their initial spawn point is far greater than the Horde, and crosses a Horde rez point (SPGY).
BOSS ROOMS
- Vandar’s placement in his bunker allows for Horde to attack defending Alliance players without pulling Van or the WMs. Drek’thar’s placement makes this impossible for the Alliance, giving the Horde much greater defensive capacity.
The next time you see Alliance turtling, know that it’s likely because of these imbalances, and probably not because the players just like to do it. The Horde’s defensive advantages are usually how a Horde group could defeat a pre-made. The differences in faction performance have less to do with player disposition or ability. Now that pre-mades are effectively dead, these map imbalances are only going to become more apparent.
Please correct any information I have wrong, or offer any counterarguments.
10 Likes
Alliance turtle because they cant race to the end. Once that happens, they lose the will to fight and stand around complaining.
1 Like
Alliance turtle because they cant race to the end.
…Because the map imbalances prevent it. Horde could easily race to the end as a pug, today, if they chose to. The map favors them for that.
Once that happens, they lose the will to fight and stand around complaining.
That’s simply not true. Alliance nearly always fights it out to the bitter end.
none of this is new information…
1 Like
Need a tl;dr summary at the bottom
Each faction has pretty distinct advantages/disadvantages.
I don’t disagree with the points you made necessarily, but we can’t look at these points alone.
The 6-min pally-pull zerg on Drek still exists, but was merely made harder to coordinate. If it was a 40v40 premade and both factions decided to zerg to the end boss, there is absolutely no way to kill Van in 6 minutes. We can solo pull with the Prospector, but it’s a dice roll and if she doesn’t run towards Van it’s pretty much over.
The pally pull makes all the warmasters irrelevant, as even if the paladin gets killed before the waterfall, Drek will be dead before they get back to the room.
Defenders can indeed be killed in Drek’s room without agroing him, you just have to abuse range. Mages can peg people deep in the room, and if they attempt to LOS at the front wall, they can be melee’d through the wall. I’d say it’s pretty equally difficult to defend in the base room, coming from someone that’s mained both factions over time.
The path being so linear into the horde base, it’s very easy for an alliance zerg to rush and crush lieuts for bonus honor while on their way to a 6-8 minute win. If horde ignored Bal completely like Alliance tend to ignore Galv, no way we’d get 2700 honor in under 10 minutes.
Also, the horde towers are pretty stupid. They can be capped by 1 person, due to the flag being out of guard’s LOS. If people aren’t already attacking bunker guards, you’re gonna have to take out a couple before capping them.
Just a few off the top of my head, I’m sure there are more pros and cons for both factions.
none of this is new information…
If there were a requirement to be new and original with complaints and criticisms, these forums would be dead.
You do know the horde can single cap alliance towers by sitting behind the pillars right?
1 Like
I agree that the map is unfairly balanced, and is a major reason that the Alliance loses the majority of games.
One more discrepancy I have found frustrating, which wasn’t mentioned by the OP, is the location of the spawn caves. The Alliance cave is tucked about as far to the north of the map as it can be. The Horde cave, on the other hand, is roughly a third of the way up from the south of the map. It’s kinda like playing chess with someone where they get two moves before you get one. Because of this difference, the Horde are able to make it north much faster. Changing the spawns to be equidistant would greatly level the playing field.
I think we just need an entirely new map honestly. BGs is awesome, but it could be so much better. PvP is my favorite part of the game.
5 Likes
It might be a bug, but alliance archers don’t respawn, like horde archers do, and are gone for the entire game. I mostly notice this on IBT.
All Blizzard needs to do is move their (Horde) starting cave entrance back and it will solve all the problems. Our meeting point (100% mounts, carrot, mount enchants) should make us meet at the Field of Strife equally. If you can get to Balinda at the same speed we can, how is that fair?
I didnt read all of your post but it doesnt matter because you miss the main point of why you lose AV.
Your faction is still trying to ride past horde. Once you as a group, stand and fight…you might win.
For now…map design…blah blah blah.
You guys are getting hunted down like those national geographic documentaries where they show the lions chasing down the stragglers of the gazelles. and you keep doing it. and i personally love it.
You guys create your own disadvantage by avoiding pvp.
Yes because if we don’t get past you, you kill bel first or get sh gy because of your starting location advantage. We would have to wipe you like 6 times before we can even get close to one of your objectives whereas you only have to wipe us like once. You can literally take your whole force right to SH GY out of the gate and pretty much wipe us there and camp us. There is no way in hell we could ever get that close to IBGY on the first push unless we coordinate a ride past you. Its not that we don’t want to fight, its how we have adapted to your starting location advantage.
Every bunker has at least 1 archer that can’t be LoS from the flag
1 Like
in retail they just open alliance gates early. lol
1 Like
Tearia,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
The 6-min pally-pull zerg on Drek still exists, but was merely made harder to coordinate.
This is more of a tactical issue that, while I think is a valid point, is overshadowed by the fact that it only happened in pre-mades, but - now that pre-mades are gone - is no longer happening for the reasons I laid out above: superior Horde defensive positions.
The path being so linear into the horde base, it’s very easy for an alliance zerg to rush and crush lieuts for bonus honor while on their way to a 6-8 minute win.
I’m afraid I can’t agree with you here. The path into the horde base is definitely not linear and involves three super tight choke points. Many an alliance pre-made has been stopped there and IB.
Your point about the Horde not being able to Zerg is well taken, however that means the Horde does what the map promotes - Defend until Alliance wipes then go on offense.
I’m really curious what the W/L ratio is now that pre-mades are gone.
HAHAHAHAHHA
“just let them win, so we can reQ”
…never heard that have you? I see that nearly ALL potential incoming loses.