I posted this as a response in another thread, but after having sat on it and re-read it, I decided to make it an original topic. I rarely make original topics, but this perspective on Pathfinder is one that I've rarely seen expressed elsewhere. So please, take the time to read before replying. This isn't a topic about how I want free flying.
I don't mind Pathfinder so much, as implemented. I would like to see Pathfinder become attainable through multiple channels, as opposed to coercing the playerbase into one specific type of gameplay behavior.
However, I hate it as a concept, and fear for what it could become. Anyone that looks at Pathfinder as a way to extend content or to make us "work" for something (an odd term to use to argue that something is acceptable in a video game, but that's another issue) is missing the principle of Pathfinder in the first place. Blizzard introduced flying in The Burning Crusade. In that expansion, they also included a zone that pretty much required flying. They implemented gameplay that was based upon that flying mechanic (I'm looking at you, Netherdrake grind). In Wrath they took it a step further. You didn't even have to wait until the level cap, because they designed Icecrown and Storm Peaks with flying in mind. These zones were great because not only did you get flying, but there was a design purpose to your getting flying. Blizzard took that gameplay mechanic and used it to unlock their zone design, giving us some of our first truly vertical zones. In Cataclysm Blizzard treated flying less seriously, but looked the other direction and gave us a huge underwater zone. While the zone itself ultimately proved to be largely unpopular with the playerbase, it was yet another attempt at a truly unique zone experience, and I think that it succeeded in that, at least.
The problem really comes to a head in Warlords of Draenor. Blizzard wasn't happy with flying, and they let us know about it. First flying was coming later, then flying was in limbo, and then flying was cancelled. The playerbase revolted, and Pathfinder was Blizzard's fix. A solution born out of appeasing a pissed off playerbase has now persisted into a 3rd expansion. Now I don't know if this was because of laziness on Blizzard's part of a lack of creativity. I don't think it really matters, though, because Pathfinder is still what it always was - an attempt to put pandora back into a box. While our most recent expansions have given us some truly beautiful zones artistically, we've been sorely lacking in the types of unique, creative zones that we used to see. And this is my problem with Pathfinder. Pathfinder is an excuse for Blizzard to think inside the box. At some point, for some reason, Blizzard decided that they didn't want to have to create the next Netherstorm or Storm Peaks, and so they bottled flying back up. What was a hugely popular core WoW mechanic for multiple expansion, a right of passage among the playerbase, was condescendingly thrown back at us as a repackaged reward.
This is why I hate Pathfinder. Is it hard? Not particularly. Is it annoying? It can be, certainly. But it's lazy design, and I know that Blizzard should be able to do better.
There is this...
Then there is this....
Can't have it both ways...
10/24/2018 05:26 AMPosted by DranadenI don't mind Pathfinder so much, as implemented.
Then there is this....
10/24/2018 05:26 AMPosted by DranadenThis is why I hate Pathfinder.
Can't have it both ways...
This actually was a really well thought out conclusion. I didn’t think of it like this but after reading through it I think you are correct.
Pathfinder is actually a scapegoat for innovative zone design.
Well done. I don’t find GD elucidates me much of at all. That was not the case today.
Pathfinder is actually a scapegoat for innovative zone design.
Well done. I don’t find GD elucidates me much of at all. That was not the case today.
10/24/2018 05:44 AMPosted by GrippThis actually was a really well thought out conclusion. I didn’t think of it like this but after reading through it I think you are correct.
Pathfinder is actually a scapegoat for innovative zone design.
Well done. I don’t find GD elucidates me much of at all. That was not the case today.
Pathfinder is okay to have at the start of the relevant expansion. It should be sunsetted (feat of strength) after the expansion and flight should be implemented as a purchased ability (ie Warlords flying buyable in 7.0 and so forth).
The game design issue is another matter. New expansions feature content rich zones and high level detail. That's probably really time consuming to do on a very lage scale in this day and age so the game team doesn't want the zones and continents to be too big. We've seen new lands shrink in size over time and the open world isn't as big as it once was, and flying shrinks it further. I'm sure that is a factor in the decision on how flight gets implemented in game too.
It would be great if future content could also be designed with flight in mind, but I'm not sure we'll ever see that in WoW again.
I'm with you on removing it for past expansions. You should be able to buy it per character in Draenor and Legion *OR* you can do Pathfinder and get it account-wide.
I contest that it was a hugely popular expansion feature after TBC. When it was brand new, it was pretty exciting. After that, flying just became another thing you had to buy at max level along with consumables and gear enchants and the rest of the chuff. If there was anything people really got excited over with each expansion, it was all of the new flying mount options...and Blizzard hasn't stopped making flying mounts at last check.
Heck, with Legion and BFA, new flying mounts were datamined months before release...which sort of puts paid to the idea that these expansions weren't designed with flying in mind. They clearly were.
I agree completely that PF is meant to slow us down. I remember Cata and Wrath in the early stages and the constant complaints of nothing to do once Naxx was cleared and I absolutely believe flying played a role in that. Every time a Pandaren NPC said "Slow down, life is to be savored!" I took it as a not-so-subtle jab at the GOGOGOGO mentality that infects this player base.
I contest that it was a hugely popular expansion feature after TBC. When it was brand new, it was pretty exciting. After that, flying just became another thing you had to buy at max level along with consumables and gear enchants and the rest of the chuff. If there was anything people really got excited over with each expansion, it was all of the new flying mount options...and Blizzard hasn't stopped making flying mounts at last check.
Heck, with Legion and BFA, new flying mounts were datamined months before release...which sort of puts paid to the idea that these expansions weren't designed with flying in mind. They clearly were.
I agree completely that PF is meant to slow us down. I remember Cata and Wrath in the early stages and the constant complaints of nothing to do once Naxx was cleared and I absolutely believe flying played a role in that. Every time a Pandaren NPC said "Slow down, life is to be savored!" I took it as a not-so-subtle jab at the GOGOGOGO mentality that infects this player base.
Blizzard wants us to experience the content, see the zones etc and that's fine and dandy on that note I can see PF locked behind well you have to do all the zones story and with this expansion I can see and the war effort quest lines. Locking PF behind rep grinds is no longer about content at this point you have explored the world seen it in all its glory all we are doing at this point is recycling our daily task with WQ as we are going the same route same ones over and over there is nothing new to see or experience. The way it is PF is or plays out as a /time played metric and I think that is what doesn't sit well with most. Once you have done the story and explored the zones there really no reason to not have it other than blizzard dragging it out.
The flying Issue and Pathfinder will be always be an albatross around Blizzard's neck.
Many subs have been lost over the issue. Many current players have hard feelings over this issue. Blizzard won the battle but at what cost?
Many subs have been lost over the issue. Many current players have hard feelings over this issue. Blizzard won the battle but at what cost?
10/24/2018 05:42 AMPosted by ThundertotemThere is this...10/24/2018 05:26 AMPosted by DranadenI don't mind Pathfinder so much, as implemented.
Then there is this....10/24/2018 05:26 AMPosted by DranadenThis is why I hate Pathfinder.
LOL
10/24/2018 06:25 AMPosted by GritThe flying Issue and Pathfinder will be always be an albatross around Blizzard's neck.
Many subs have been lost over the issue. Many current players have hard feelings over this issue. Blizzard won the battle but at what cost?
Trust me when I say this, people that left over this aren't missed. The argument is invalid especially with how easy it is to get. Honestly, I had it two weeks into launch, and it only gets easier to complete as the expansion goes.
I do agree that past expansions should just be feats of strength and just bought like the license they had from MoP. Kind of asinine to still have it for past expansions.
You know, to be perfectly honest i’d play more if I could fly after 120. I’d level more of my 110’s, I’d do more WQ’s. Right now with the density I’d rather do my emissary and log off.
The argument now would be made that it makes Warmode less relevant, but truth be told you still contest some WQ’s.
They’ve stated they wish they’d never have allowed flying, but that bell cannot be unrung and for the enjoyment of the game, most of us would like to be able to spend our time doing more than running and using FP’s simply to do WQ grinding and gathering. It gets old, to the point like I said to not even wanting to log on past what’s necessary.
The argument now would be made that it makes Warmode less relevant, but truth be told you still contest some WQ’s.
They’ve stated they wish they’d never have allowed flying, but that bell cannot be unrung and for the enjoyment of the game, most of us would like to be able to spend our time doing more than running and using FP’s simply to do WQ grinding and gathering. It gets old, to the point like I said to not even wanting to log on past what’s necessary.
As much as I hate rep grinds, I honestly wouldn't even care if Blizzard left them in as a requirement for Pathfinder if they just freaking stopped time gating it so that we only get flight towards the end of an expansion.
It honestly just doesn't even feel worth it to play this game anymore until the end of an expansion because of it. I'd gladly be playing this game, flying around, doing WQs, leveling professions, leveling alts, etc if I just had flight to do it with. Pathfinder time gating has actually made me play this game a lot less than I used to, and if it's supposed to make us play for longer, they have completely failed at that IMO.
It honestly just doesn't even feel worth it to play this game anymore until the end of an expansion because of it. I'd gladly be playing this game, flying around, doing WQs, leveling professions, leveling alts, etc if I just had flight to do it with. Pathfinder time gating has actually made me play this game a lot less than I used to, and if it's supposed to make us play for longer, they have completely failed at that IMO.
it's all about being subbed as long as possible and pathfinder helps that.
I like pathfinder, I like being able to unlock flying for all my alts at once. What I absolutely hate is this Pathfinder part 2 garbage. It needs to be earnable from day 1 of an expansion. Tell me what you want me to do, and let me do it at my own pace. It is absurd to further lock it until some future patch for no reason.
10/24/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Sanchito10/24/2018 06:25 AMPosted by GritThe flying Issue and Pathfinder will be always be an albatross around Blizzard's neck.
Many subs have been lost over the issue. Many current players have hard feelings over this issue. Blizzard won the battle but at what cost?
Trust me when I say this, people that left over this aren't missed. The argument is invalid especially with how easy it is to get. Honestly, I had it two weeks into launch, and it only gets easier to complete as the expansion goes.
I do agree that past expansions should just be feats of strength and just bought like the license they had from MoP. Kind of asinine to still have it for past expansions.
Who knew? You speak for everyone now?
By the way, how’s flying working out for ya? Had it 2 weeks after launch, eh? You’re right, you should have it. Pathfinder isn’t difficult, it’s a transparent effort to hide the lack of content and innovation out in the WORLD of Warcraft. You’re still gated like the rest of us, until they give you some new arbitrary chores to do to open Part 2. Then they’ll give some arbitrary date beyond that...removing player choice is what is driving this game down the tubes.
Let me choose what I want to grind out, artificial limits reek of terrible design and a complete lack of innovation. Used to be everyone didn’t have to play the same way, now we are all shoehorned into the main storyline of terrible writing, and forced to ride on the exact same rails as everyone else.
OP
ya know let us take WOTLK as an example. Northrend was a huge spread out zone. Not my favorite place, but it became so much better after putting in flying and I could buy books and mail to alts so they could fly.
Now in BFA we get three smallish zones with a lot of up and down and poor travel paths to all locatins, but actually verry little space.
The number of quests in BFA are packed so close together it is like walking from room to room in a house. Spread them out over zones like northrend and it would contain the same number of quests but in much more space (with more mining / herbing nodes I might observe) and places needing, not wanting but needing flying could be built in. Think storm peaks or ice crown or even wintergrasp.
Making all that space might make it harder for bliz since they would have to put in more stuff from FP to small towns and better roads etc.
This lets make it small and easier on devs to design but no flying because it is really a very little space, isn't MMO concept. The world needs to be large and spread out to feel more like it did in past expansions.
Even MOP pandaria has significantly more space then post MOP land.
Agree LAZY Design and such.
Just as RNG gear is the simplest to impliment instead of other ones.
Having scaling zones is another make lazy design while sold as a benefit to players, I prefer to outlevel zones and then be able to farm through them and ignore mobs that at lower levels were a problem.
Fighting my way past umpteen mobs that can truly harm me just to pick a herb or mine a node and being so busy killing the train that some one in a golem runs buy and picks the node and it despawns before I can get it gathered is not fun.
Then again I liked riding around the larger zones between quest hubs.
I even find that they seem to make poor bread crumbs to lead from quest to quest.
Will say that making pathfinder I grant flying and turning it on within a couple weeks and retroactive to level 60 would help BFA keep players happy, and unhappy players do not stay subbed, and the few no fly minority folk can just ride their ground mounts or rp walk. The flying debacle in WOD showed most players wanted flying or bliz would have never tried to come up with something to keep people subbed.
I still remember in Spires of arake :
What are we without the skies.
Notice in borealis that during the start intro to the town you go to the FP and guess what Talia has a flying mount. Nothing slaps a player in the face with artificial than key NPC's flying / giving them a ride to somewhere that they used to be able to just mount up and fly over. That felt petty and vindictive and bliz had to implement that to make the quests work without flying so they could have implemented flying working as an alternative.
ya know let us take WOTLK as an example. Northrend was a huge spread out zone. Not my favorite place, but it became so much better after putting in flying and I could buy books and mail to alts so they could fly.
Now in BFA we get three smallish zones with a lot of up and down and poor travel paths to all locatins, but actually verry little space.
The number of quests in BFA are packed so close together it is like walking from room to room in a house. Spread them out over zones like northrend and it would contain the same number of quests but in much more space (with more mining / herbing nodes I might observe) and places needing, not wanting but needing flying could be built in. Think storm peaks or ice crown or even wintergrasp.
Making all that space might make it harder for bliz since they would have to put in more stuff from FP to small towns and better roads etc.
This lets make it small and easier on devs to design but no flying because it is really a very little space, isn't MMO concept. The world needs to be large and spread out to feel more like it did in past expansions.
Even MOP pandaria has significantly more space then post MOP land.
Agree LAZY Design and such.
Just as RNG gear is the simplest to impliment instead of other ones.
Having scaling zones is another make lazy design while sold as a benefit to players, I prefer to outlevel zones and then be able to farm through them and ignore mobs that at lower levels were a problem.
Fighting my way past umpteen mobs that can truly harm me just to pick a herb or mine a node and being so busy killing the train that some one in a golem runs buy and picks the node and it despawns before I can get it gathered is not fun.
Then again I liked riding around the larger zones between quest hubs.
I even find that they seem to make poor bread crumbs to lead from quest to quest.
Will say that making pathfinder I grant flying and turning it on within a couple weeks and retroactive to level 60 would help BFA keep players happy, and unhappy players do not stay subbed, and the few no fly minority folk can just ride their ground mounts or rp walk. The flying debacle in WOD showed most players wanted flying or bliz would have never tried to come up with something to keep people subbed.
I still remember in Spires of arake :
What are we without the skies.
Notice in borealis that during the start intro to the town you go to the FP and guess what Talia has a flying mount. Nothing slaps a player in the face with artificial than key NPC's flying / giving them a ride to somewhere that they used to be able to just mount up and fly over. That felt petty and vindictive and bliz had to implement that to make the quests work without flying so they could have implemented flying working as an alternative.
I like your point the zones should be intertwined with flying for sure so we can leave this pathfinder thing behind for good. I’m so tired of running around generic forests and though the art impressive they expect me to be impressed or immersed. I know the Old God thing is a meme and all but I’d kill for some kind of Old God corruption scenario where they caused Azeroth to morph and huge mountains emerged reaching up into space and we had to scale the mountains slowly with flying and reach our way to the top to contest the Gods. Something unique and refreshing so I can feel I care again about the situation of Azeroth and am immersed.
^This, a thousand times.10/24/2018 07:24 AMPosted by LogriI like pathfinder, I like being able to unlock flying for all my alts at once. What I absolutely hate is this Pathfinder part 2 garbage. It needs to be earnable from day 1 of an expansion. Tell me what you want me to do, and let me do it at my own pace. It is absurd to further lock it until some future patch for no reason.
IF Blizz ever makes flying purchasable per character at max level in Pathfinder expansions, they'd better keep the Pathfinder option available for those of us who enjoy earning an achievement that lets all our alts fly as soon as they enter the expansion.10/24/2018 06:10 AMPosted by DerkaYou should be able to buy it per character in Draenor and Legion *OR* you can do Pathfinder and get it account-wide.
I think if they want to remove flying from current content, which is effectively what they're doing between the time gates and the end game no fly zones, they need to put in a replacement system. They won't do that because the issue is one of investment. There is no value in the system to the players, just Blizzard who can more easily design linear content without flight.
Can we not let this die yet?
Considering all the flying mounts in game/store,
there was never any risk of flying being removed completely.
From an old post I made, for people who don't realise how things
work in the world when it comes to making a change:
Paraphrasing Rum Diaries for shizzes and gigglezez.
Government wants to raise tax by 10%, but knows the people won't like it, so they raise taxes by 20%. The people !"#$%&', moan complain, life's too hard (Much like these forums). Government says, ok ok, we hear you, reduce taxes by 10% (Which was their original target anyways) and the people (Oblivious as always) thank them for it.
Blizz Dev meeting: "How can we make the playerbase jump through hoops to get flying, thus gating their play time even further, and only earning flying when we say they can have it, I was thinking some kind of pathfinder achievment system".
Simple, tell them you'll remove flying, wait for the chicken little's to come out in force, then tell them we'll meet them halfway with pathfinder, and they'll be thankful for it :P
Considering all the flying mounts in game/store,
there was never any risk of flying being removed completely.
From an old post I made, for people who don't realise how things
work in the world when it comes to making a change:
Paraphrasing Rum Diaries for shizzes and gigglezez.
Government wants to raise tax by 10%, but knows the people won't like it, so they raise taxes by 20%. The people !"#$%&', moan complain, life's too hard (Much like these forums). Government says, ok ok, we hear you, reduce taxes by 10% (Which was their original target anyways) and the people (Oblivious as always) thank them for it.
Blizz Dev meeting: "How can we make the playerbase jump through hoops to get flying, thus gating their play time even further, and only earning flying when we say they can have it, I was thinking some kind of pathfinder achievment system".
Simple, tell them you'll remove flying, wait for the chicken little's to come out in force, then tell them we'll meet them halfway with pathfinder, and they'll be thankful for it :P
Rather than eh, patting yourselves on the back for your well thought out rebuttals or thesis's against Pathfinder, maybe, I dunno...
I Just did Pathfinder, Part I, didn't necessarily like doing it, don't care when flying comes out or if it ever does, but rather than complain I DID it.
With all the effort you people spend campaigning for changes to make the game easier and less time consuming, you could get a lot more done in game.
Not actually on Blizzard's side here, but when (last ~5 years), did the point of the game become scheming to make the game simpler/faster/easier?
It's freakin' ridiculous, people...
I Just did Pathfinder, Part I, didn't necessarily like doing it, don't care when flying comes out or if it ever does, but rather than complain I DID it.
With all the effort you people spend campaigning for changes to make the game easier and less time consuming, you could get a lot more done in game.
Not actually on Blizzard's side here, but when (last ~5 years), did the point of the game become scheming to make the game simpler/faster/easier?
It's freakin' ridiculous, people...