A Century Or Two Later

At this point I really do feel a reboot is in order. The story has just been so poorly handled from BFA onward I really don’t see how you fix it. Probably best to just put the poor thing out of its misery. Tell me about the rabbits again, Zoval.

But personally I would learn toward a soft rather than hard reboot. Because there were and are actually quite a few nifty concepts that have floated to the top of septic stew that I feel ought not be disposed of.

To that end I think the easiest solution would be to move the setting a century or two into the future.

Roughly half of the playable races are either functionally immortal or live long enough that they might as well be. I seriously want to know who said Draenei live tens of thousands of years. A Draenei born while the fertile crescent was just starting to see human settlers would be barely middle aged today.

And for the humans and those with comparable lifespans there’s no shortage of things to extend their lifespans. Which means we can have as many returning characters as we want.

Additionally I’d like to see a time jump to see how WoW’s nations develop. Keep in mind every nation in WoW has either sprung up or had huge and irreversible changes made within the last decade. And the unrelenting cosmic threats haven’t really given anyone the opportunity to calm down and just breathe for awhile.

Like the Kaldorei were until very recently functionally immortal. They’re going to have to invent whole industries now to care for the elderly, bury the dead and tend to the grieving. Maybe they grow a new world tree, maybe they don’t. But either way after millenias of solitude it’s been made clear that their way of life has to change. They were about as isolated, homogenous and static as a people ever really could be and in the span of a decade all of that was flipped upside down several times. What do they look like when the smoke clears and they finally have time to think?

The Forsaken have the polar opposite problem. The vast majority of them were just commoners pre plague and have known only an undead society forged by and for war. What’s it look like when they have centuries to pursue non violent interests? Personally I’m picturing a Renaissance of art and technology. Perhaps they’re the first on Azeroth to put together the motion picture. And now something like Andorhal is this version of Hollywood. I mean hell be awfully easy to shoot stunts if somebody getting dismembered or impaled was pretty much a non issue. And as per population concerns- well I do think it’ll be more than Zelling to volunteer over time. Especially if the Forsaken are in the business of exporting fun pop culture.

The Draenei and Orcs would be given time to become real Azerothian natives. Eventually seeing more children born here than were on Draenor or Argus. A crashed space ship and a hastily thrown together fortress city eventually growing to become permanent and indelible marks on the world. Sprawling cities, once so intrinsically alien, now as well known to everyone as Lordaeron or the Undermine. Just another part of the world that feels like it’s always been there.

The Dwarves are united for the first time since the War of the Three Hammers. I’d like to see how that holds up or falls apart. It would be cool to see Shadowforge as an actual city. And maybe give the Wildhammer something to do other than hang out on mountain peak.

The Trolls aren’t quite as united but I do think between the Darkspear and Zandalari the writing is on the wall. Maybe the Trolls could stand alone as a mighty nation once upon a time. But they’ve seen the once powerful capitols teter and even fall before forces only massive coalitions could face. Be interesting to see Jintha’Alor under Revantusk banners become the new Forest Troll Capitol. With efforts being made to reclaim Zul’Drak for the Frost Trolls. And perhaps even the Sandfury could learn to swallow their pride and work with the Vulpera to build an oasis in Vol’Dun.

I’d be interested to see what a Stormwind no longer on the defense could manage. With them leading a new coalition of Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, and Gilneas I figure they could shore up Duskwood’s defenses and finally get a foothold in Stranglethorn after their previous efforts were ruined by a freak Apocalypse Now Reference accident.

The Sin’Dorei would of course have completely renewed Eversong by then. But I would be curious to see how the influence of the Shaldorei has influenced their culture and architecture. Seeing as their respective leaders are a power couple I’d imagine a lavender pigmented elf would become a common sight on the streets of Silvermoon. To say nothing of how they’d approach the Ghostlands. There’s no shortage of undead elves who might find comfort there as it’s a blending of their old and new lives. Not to mention completely renewing it might feel like dishonoring a battlefield. Should they simply move on? Or should elven children look upon the haunted woods to understand why they still call themselves Blood Elves?

The Gnomes have found their legendary city and are a united people with access to unprecedented technology. With Mechagnome ingenuity I imagine they could easily retake Gnomergon, and perhaps offer treatment and some reconciliation toward the leper Gnomes. Perhaps technology could be made to communicate with the troglodytes could be made. And now even their once sworn subterranean enemies live alongside the Gnomes in harmony.

The Tauren similarly find themselves with a real sense of home and family for the first time in recent memory. Surrogate family amongst the Horde, yes, but blood relatives with the Highmountain and Taunka now under their banner and looking to them to lead. With no enemy to flee or face, with nothing threatening their homes, with the certainty that they now have permanent settlements everything on Azeroth and beyond would hesitate to threaten - what do they do?

The Worgen are a bit of a loaded question. I figure by now Gilneas is reclaimed and some basically amicable if tense agreement with the Forsaken has been made to figure out who gets what parts of Silverpine. But I very much doubt the Worgen will go in a generation. In fact I think their appeal would only increase in peacetime. Many of us joke about throwing everything aside and just trying to survive in the woods. Well- what if there was a way to make sure you’d not only survive doing so, but be much more at home there? To experience all the sights, scents and sounds of the wild in a more intimate way? To be able run wild and free, unbothered by society’s concerns? Yeah, I don’t think the Wolf Cult’s going anywhere.

And then of course the Bilgewater Goblins. They actually have the most interesting cultural upheaval of all. Because they’re actually citizens of a nation for the first time in the history of their species. They’re not just employees anymore. How do a people who’s only form of government was a cutthroat corporatocracy react to being integrated into a society where many allied nations simply eschew capital? The Tauren live off the land, the Forsaken already realized the futility of the pursuit of wealth, the Orcs fundamentally do not care about glamor, and the Zandalari are so bored of gold they use it as wallpaper. Now do they change as a society upon realizing their entire motivation is irrelevant in the eyes of most other people?

All fascinating questions. I look forward for them being ignored as we march forward into some more cosmic BS.

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That would be a dream come true for me personally. Ever since I first set foot on this place I have wanted to make it my home. And that was before Cata when the mobs were still elites and killed you several times before you could even reach the top. Give me Jintha’alor and I’m good :wink:

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I’m picturing Revantusk Village becoming a legitimate port with a big dock connecting to the Echo Isles and Dazar’Alor.

Kind of picture it as the EKs big nature oriented Horde hub. The Forest Trolls already had the manimal primals and I think they need to be retroactively made the excuse for Troll Druids. Because I’ve no earthly idea why Jungle Trolls would turn into bears and mountain lions. There’s an Emerald Dream webway right there for Christ’s sake.

I’m actually kind of upset WoW lost me while I was still workshopping Caplata Torntusk, my Revantusk Druid. Figured she was a Primal that went to Druid school after encountering the Cenarions in the EPL. Had the fun idea of making her a Disney Princess by way of the Predator. Singing to the creatures of the forest for aid to weave a beautiful dress. Before spotting a handsome human prince wandering the countryside and deciding all she really needed - is his teeth for a necklace to complete the outfit.

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ngl I’m kinda disappointed as well we won’t hear more from her now. But yeah, the

seems to be where the story is headed right now, whether we like it or not :frowning:

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I feel like I’m in the same boat with a lot of people. I was already keen to let my subscription run out because I was disappointed in the content and baffled by the story. Seriously it induced laughter where I’m pretty sure it wanted to induce gasps. Elune going “Oh” upon realizing she damned her people is funny to me.

And then this horror show came to light, and it appears to be just the tip of the iceberg. And that about cemented further disinterest. I do respect people staying aboard. There’s no real right thing to do here, just do what feels right.

Honestly if Blizz had a dollar per month option where you still had access to the forums I’d probably take that. Because WoW’s story forums are one of the last bastions of a bygone age. Where people actually read, consider and reply to long form posting.

Carl Sagan warned us about how shortening news clips were causing us to get dumber, and how this could only escalate and worsen. Doubt he imagined just how fast that would happen.

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I know, i know, many take fun out of it…but i think…this situation shouldn´t have be one of fun and memematerial…on the cost of the night elves again, i mean…how many moral blows need this com? What is blizzard thinking in which direction it will lead? What is their goal with this plot? Do they really think this story is …good? This story is…interesting, this story is…in any form or shape…exciting?

Renewal or vengeance? That’s not a choice, you can also experience renewal through vengeance , that’s just the point, and Tyrande had already decided, the only thing this plot point brings at all is a point for Sylvanas …ala “The gods, even gods who really consider a race their children…don’t really care about their followers”.

it use elune as excuse that sylvanas may be have a point…on the cost of Elune…and the night elf fantasy, its absurd to think about it, blizzard try to blame everyone a bit to easier sylvanas sins to make her redemption plot possible.

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Even if the Forsaken can get volunteers who want to become undead (assuming that they find the means to do so, which they lack now) they are going to be far, far, FAR below replacement thresholds indefinitely.

A 200 year timeskip seems like it should be the last thing that any Forsaken fan would want, because at that point the Forsaken would be reduced to, at best, a small commune of individuals. Not a thriving civilization or empire as you envision.

They fact that given the relentless march of time they are ultimately doomed to slowly fade away no matter what they do is a key element in what is supposed to make them tragic.

The tendency for Forsaken fans to just handwave away population problems (like with the assumption that there are hundreds of thousands of humans who just can’t wait to give up everything and be zombies) when they theorycraft their shiny new zombie futures strikes me as wishful thinking bordering on denial.

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The game hand waves away every bodies population problems. Suffice it to say, there is more than enough 'm’guffin in the game and on the sidelines for the forsaken to do the same. There is no equivalent for the living races.

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Personally, I think that it should stop handwaving away demographic problems, not double down on ignoring them.

Especially in the context of a gap spanning centuries. One could argue that the tide of demographics moves sufficiently slowly that in the roughly decade or so of time that WoW takes place in, you wouldn’t notice much change just by looking around, but 200 years? 200 years ago, the population of the entire USA was less than half the population of current New York. The population of the entire planet was less than the population of India now.

Even if the Forsaken somehow manage to find a means of achieving replacement-level reproduction, they will have been pushed into irrelevance by the sheer demographic tide of the living.

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And mind you, even if the human/living population on Azeroth doesn’t track the growth rate of the previous 200 years IRL, that would still doom the Forsaken demographically because their ability to reproduce is tied to the ability of the living to reproduce and will always be a shrinking proportion of it unless the proposal here is to raise literally every single person who dies as Forsaken or for the Forsaken to basically sit in the middle of nowhere and literally never do anything so as to stave off the tide of attrition.

And even that wouldn’t help since Forsaken bodies are still weathered by time and require replacement over time.

The Forsaken more than any other faction on Azeroth have no future and attempting to prolong their own existence will require increasingly desperate measures as time goes on. That is one of the things that makes them unique and tragic.

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Your ideas are quite interesting. The sad part is Blizzard - prior to the reveal of the sexual harassment scandals and the related hiatus on development - was working towards either a “Lifelands” or “Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo” expansion.

A lot more worldbuilding is exactly what I think the story needs rather than another cosmic conflict or swinging the villain-bat around. The population demographics situation alone is interesting. For example, the Night Elves have lost their immortality but its inferred they still live for millennia. And if the Forsaken want to boost their population - assuming the moral ramifications are glossed over - they could look outside humans (for example; there could be dead trolls, goblins or gnomes who are okay with becoming undead).

This current story, I think, is the flower that was seeded by, and rooted in, millennial contrarianism (looking back, Blizzard loves putting subversive stuff in their stories).

The only subversive thing about Blizzard storytelling is bad mystery box style writing. I am not sure what this basis for “millennial contrarianism” you are claiming is, as its pretty on par with the religious questioning Final Fantasy is known for, and far less harsh considering it gives easy outs. After Illidan did his thing, we didn’t go butcher the Army of Light or had them become ashamed exiles or uncertain nervous reformed people. The Argents split with the Scarlets and most humans and their religion was pretty insulated from that group. So far there is only “maybe some part of the Naaru are authoritarian”, which basically tells us something we already knew is that Light can reward fanaticism when not making sure you are actually moral in your pursuit of righteousness.

Questioning religious authority isn’t something exclusive to millennials. We had entire religious groups sprung from it.

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The scourge is functionally infinite. As long as there is a functionally infinite scourge, there is a functionally infinite source of ghouls to return sapience to.

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The Scourge is nowhere near functionally infinite.

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“Dwarves don’t have beards.”
That’s what you sound like right now.

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Which is why having zero Forsaken interaction with Maldraxxus is a crime unto itself. They could learn more stable methods of prolonging themselves. Barring that, they could always lean way heavier into the mad science stuff and just be brains-in-jars-in-corpses.

Problem I keep running into thinking about a drastic reimagining of the game is that it always ends at “it’s time for WoW 2.” And beyond that, there’s no reason to think that those responsible for a game I’ve come to hate will suddenly produce a game I love. Short of a reckoning within the company, there’s not really a change in story that can succeed, I think.

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The Scourge presence in Tirisfal, Silverpine, and the Western Plaguelands has been practically eliminated, and they are in terminal decline in the Eastern Plaguelands. In Northrend their holdings have been reduced to Icecrown, where they have since been co-opted by the Jailer.

They are not “functionally infinite” as evidenced by the fact that they’ve been losing ground everywhere since WotLK.

I think that people’s assumption that Maldraxxus/The Primus would be interested in any way in maintaining undeath in the world of the living is a very wrongheaded reading of this expansion that doesn’t go beyond “well they have an undead aesthetic so they’re natural allies”

The idea that ANY of the lords of death would be interested in prolonging the Forsaken’s existence is a wrongheaded interpretation of the cosmology. Undead don’t just break the rules of life, they break the rules of death as well.

No it hasn’t. We went to cut the head off the beast, leaving the Argent Crusade and two of the Four Horsemen behind to lead Azeroth’s defense whilst we did it. Granted, those two Horsemen rejoined Bolvar in the actual strike against Zovaal.

You claimed that the Scourge were “functionally infinite” to such an extent that surplus ghouls could sustain the Forsaken not only above replacement rates but in a way that is competitive with natural reproduction, and then claimed that it was as self-evident as Dwarves having beards.

This is not true, and if you believe that it is I think that you have a bizarrely warped sense of scale (which I guess isn’t unforgivable given that Blizzard has a bizarrely warped sense of scale as well)

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Keeping in mind that there is no known way to grant Scourge sapience, and one would expect that any that still had the potential to regain sapience would have acquired it by now in the same manner the Forsaken did (during any of the times the Lich King’s hold was weakened, such as the end of WotLK or the beginning of Shadowlands.)

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