In the Manga story about the Headless Horseman, the Scarlet Crusade literally culls an Alliance town because who knows there might have been infected people
The Scarlets damaged the Alliance’s presence in Lordaeron almost as much as the Undead did.
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Balnazzar noted that there was no way for the Alliance Civilians to have defended themselves so there must have been a secret protector(obviously Balnazzar himself) and that secret protector could have only been doing that to lure civilians to a supposedly safe harbor so that he could unleash the Scourge on them(actually it’s so he can reduce them to ash with the Scarlet Crusade).
The funny thing is: The Scourge is so large now that any Safe Haven Bait the Scourge dangles out would not have Civilians even reach the place as the Scourge would just ambush the people before arriving! Furthermore the Haven would simply be a Cult of the Damned Hideout with only members of the Cult of the Damned present.
Balnazzar’s lie is based on faulty logic that only works for WC3 Human Campaign Era Scourge not Undead Campaign Era Scourge!
Incidentally despite Balnazzar at least making an attempt at rationalizing the destruction of a village he protected to his men he seemed quite disturbed when they randomly started insinuating that the Paladin who became the Headless Horseman was turning Undead and immediately tried to dissuade them from the notion saying he was just processing grief.
Of course his own plan for the Paladin was the primary purpose of the Scarlet Crusade: drive the man insane enough to see everyone including fellow Scarlets as Undead. After the Paladin was decapitated by his fellow Scarlets Balnazzar raised him as the Headless Horseman as his crowning achievement to gain favor with Sargeras.
Sure enough he alongside Gul’dan and Kil’jaeden became one of the 3 primary leaders of the Legion’s final assault on Azeroth because of his success. Of course being a poor fighter he got killed in the Paladin and Priest Class Hall Campaigns at Netherlight Temple.
Balnazzar’s primary strength was scheming not fighting and as expected when taking to the battlefield himself he wound up dead quicker than Tichondrius or even Mephistroth.
In any case Balnazzar only wanted to drive only one Scarlet Crusade Member to the insane paranoia of randomly accusing people of being Scourge and was disturbed by the whole organization becoming this insane! His lies worked too well!
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That guy has been in the game since vanilla. Originally the Alliance and the Scarlet Crusade did try to make an alliance. In fact the Alliance PC goes around doing some “proving challenges” for crusade members. Such as killing undead in an area in Desolace. However upon meeting the crusades representative in Southshore (whom has defected), we learn the truth of the crusade. That they are fanatics that see anyone who isn’t one of them as a traitor. Why blizzard didn’t remove the NPC from Stromwind in Cata I do not know. They killed off the one in Desolace in Cata (his corpse can be seen in the Valley of bones, the same location he sent the PC during vanilla).
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I said, quote, “non-villainous Old Gods”. Alleria’s a mortal using the Void, not a Void entity so she doesn’t count. The Scarlet Crusade are an enemy of the Alliance according to the official lore, and confirmed by Metzen himself as Ainhin already proved to you.
The last Scarlets were wiped out in Legion by the Ebon Blade when they came to add Whitemane to the Four Horsemen; I did that quest chain with this very character. Those brochures you’re talking about are from Scarlet Crusade fans calling themselves the Scarlet Brotherhood, and they agitate for Genn and say nothing about Turalyon. Plus I and several others here, especially Solarion, have pointed out why Turalyon falling in lockstep with a tyrannical AU Xe’ra violates the lore.
We don’t need mind control shenanigans to explain what happened to the AU Draenei. The writers just need to acknowledge that the AU Draenei are sore with the Mag’har over AU Grom and the Iron Horde. Plus I wasn’t the one saying “it’s the Horde’s turn to be heroes”. Someone else arguing against me in this thread said that, and I gave a counterargument.
If you don’t see the reasons I’ve given in the lore or Blizzard’s writing history, you’re in denial. I just try to show people like you the other side of the story given your one-eyed views of the “Light bad” story and anything relating to Xe’ra. You even admitted to others on this thread that Blizz probably won’t go the “politics and subtle examinations of character” route and how this story “It’s the corner Blizzard’s written themselves into…” It sounds like deep down, you see I have a valid point, but can’t bring yourself to admit it.
There’s about 3-4 people on the forums who go into denial about these points I raise, and whenever I talk about this they repeat the same debunked counterarguments, mock me, strawman me and vote brigade with others who also mock my ideas; They are Cursewords, Renautus and Lenastus (see below). I nickname them my hate brigade. You also repeat counterarguments I’ve previously debunked and strawman me, but you don’t mock me so I don’t include you among them (credit where credit it due).
Hey Lenastus, long time, no see! It’s been awhile since you strawmanned me. This “morally grey” “extreme order bad as extreme chaos” fixation has been going on in fictional western media since the 1990’s, and Blizzard alone have done it at least FIVE times. At this point, making everything grey has become boring. When you dilute white and black, you don’t get nuance, you just get blobs of gray. Do it enough and people start uttering the Eight Deadly Words for fiction writers.
I’m saying Blizz is trying to pretend each force they’re as bad as each other, and you know that’s actually my argument, and you’re lying.
Yes. When ever you repeat the same nonsense, and when you repeat the same threads over and over again, with no new information, the arguments are the same.
There hasn’t been much going on in the lore concerning the Light since the last time you made this thread.
Perhaps if you had a new point, or there was new information released by Blizzard, the arguments would be a bit different.
Your head canon breaks with the lore.
The Draenei and the Maghar got along in the aftermath of the events of WoD. They had hostilities afterward. There was something else that sparked hostilities. There are Orcs in Yrel’s ranks, so it isn’t based on the previous conflict or purely racial on her part.
No. People have a different opinion. Your nonsense is not some objective fact.
I can acknowledge you have your opinion. And I disagree with it.
Blizzard can make all sorts of stories, with new characters that fans enjoy. They have done it in the past. There is absolutely zero reason for Blizzard to avoid expanding on the Light. Especially since they have already built up Yrel and Xera as potential dangers.
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The fact that AU Draenei are sore over the Iron Horde is logical and based on how AU Grom was still alive, many Draenei lost a lot to them - Yrel herself is a former Iron Horde slave whose sister Samaara was killed for an Iron Horde weapons project - and several members of the AU Draenei characters complain about him. That whole Mag’har scenario relies on characters on both sides breaking character to do things they would normally never do and engage in behavior that is logistically impossible, simply “because it’s dark”.
There’s a difference between expanding on a character and villain-batting them, and you know this. Yrel wasn’t built up as a danger, she was hit with the villain bat the first time we saw her after WoD, and we’re being expected to swallow that without question.
The fact that you cherry-picked 2 to 3 sentences out of 7 paragraph reply says that deep down, you see some validity to my case, but refuse to admit it, and that since you like this story direction, you champion it and attack those who oppose it, logical consequences of plot events and character progression be damned. The more people attack it, the more aggressively you try to defend it.
Since you’re providing fewer and fewer counterarguments, refuting me can’t be your goal. You could copy-paste your previous counterarguments but you usually don’t. What do you hope to accomplish with these increasingly vitriolic comments, @Cursewords?
I mean…unfortunate though it is, the Devs completely abandoned that logical circumstance and went with Grommash’s “Draenor is free” idiocy apparently redeeming him in everyone’s eyes, whereupon the draenei and orcs spent several decades cooperatively driving the Legion out of Draenor, then spent peacetime trading and even somewhat culturally integrating for a time before this “Light Mother” showed up and started radicalizing the draenei into hardline Light fanatics.
It’s stupid, but that’s the direction they’ve gone with it, and they’re unlikely to undo all that to lean into the idea that the AU draenei never got over the events of WoD and kept hating the AU orcs the entire time they were working and living together in peace.
As mind-numbingly ridiculous as it is, they evidently came out of WoD thinking the handling of the Iron Horde resolution was entirely reasonable and AU Grommash being usurped by a worse villain somehow served as a legitimate parallel to MU Grom’s sacrifice redeeming himself and the MU orcs. Consequently, the story at this point is that the AU draenei bought into that very thing, becoming friends and allies with the former Iron Horde over the years between the end of WoD and the events of the Allied Race questline.
It’s not logical. It’s not reasonable. It’s not well-written. It’s not satisfying in any way. But it’s the steaming wreck of a story that we left behind on AU Draenor, and the background thus far of the AU draenei since WoD is built upon them being brainwashed and/or indoctrinated into turning on the orcs after they’d been allies for many years, with them having apparently forgiven the whole Iron Horde business.
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That should be the name of this subforum
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That is not where we are as far as the current lore. Just because you don’t like the Maghar recruitment scenario doesn’t remove its canonicity.
The Draenei view the Orcs as noble after the events of WoD. Read that journal that drops in the event.
And when she approaches, Yrel says “it pains me to lose an old friend, Grommash.”
So this antipathy that you are claiming is not evident in the events. Even by Yrel’s own words.
Again, those are canon story events.
Just because you want to plug your ears and cover your eyes does not mean it is stricken from the lore.
That is nuts but you do you. I am outright disagreeing with you. And you think that means I agree deep down? Man. You really are some sort of narcissist. You can not imagine people disagree. You think they are “in denial” or that they “deep down secretly agree” - even when they are out right saying they disagree.
You made a thread with an opinion and I disagree with it. I don’t think the limits you are trying to set on the story make any sense. Your reasons are purely a matter of taste.
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If you do not delve into the details very much (up to embellishment), is it possible to compare the situation with the Cuban Missile Crisis?
The Mother of Light was a conditional “reason” to begin to subjugate the orcs and all that … no?
Edit.
Casus belli. Is this more appropriate instead of “reason”? When they declare war over spitting in the face.
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I almost completely agree with you here.
Apart from the question of whether there is actually any Light brainwashing going on - supernatural or mundane - or whether the “Light forced upon them” is just giving the Mag’har a “join or die” choice… I completely agree with you.
Canon or not, that is part of my whole point; this whole “Lightbound” nonsense - and by extension a lot of this “Light Crusade” idea - is terrible and flies in the face of the lore. “It’s not logical. It’s not reasonable. It’s not well-written.” Just because it’s canon doesn’t mean we have to accept it as good. You took the words right out of my mouth 
I know there’s a few people on the forums who’ve taken an irrational dislike to me and a few others I’ve provoked… and both those groups will disagree with any valid point I make on this subject simply because I’m the one who said it.
@Ainhin Good idea, I might rename this thread with your idea.
@Cursewords, as usual towards me, you’re being a two-faced liar. When Raselle says the Mag’har recruitment scenario goes against logic and the lore, you upvote their comment, but when I say it goes against logic and the lore you mock me and say I’m “nuts” or spouting “gibberish” at the very least. You cherry-pick like you’re on a farm instead of arguing in good faith with me. Your love of the “Light Crusade” story is as much a matter of opinion and taste as my distaste for it, but I also have reasons beyond taste, some which Raselle shares. I await your next cherry-picking laden comment, but hope you rise above that, Cursewords.
As usual, you are mistaken, and you misunderstand what is plain.
I upvoted their post because one of their points is that - whether you like it or not, the current AU Draenei don’t hate the Maghar for the past events. That is the canon direction.
Raselle might not like it. She might think it breaks logic. But she acknowledges the current position of the lore, and where things stand. Unlike you.
Which disproves your statement of :
Those two statements of yours go against current lore. And she described why. That is why I liked her post.
Your statements are what fly in the face of lore. They are easily shown as wrong.
Of course not.
You can say it is good or bad. But this “soreness” against the Maghar that you think Blizzard should “acknowledge” is actually nonexistent in the lore. It is purely head canon from you. Head canon that the lore proves wrong.
I just explained why.
You and Ras can both say it is illogical and you both don’t like it. But where she acknowledges the current lore, you rant on with head canon that is easily disproven.
The difference is I am not attempting to hobble the lore based on my taste.
If Blizzard wants to make an Expac with the Light as our Ally - again - that is OK by me. Hopefully it is fun. It has been done before… but I am not trying to hobble the lore based on my taste.
And if Blizzard decides to make Light Fanatics the major antagonists… I am fine with that, too. Hopefully, it is fun. I am not trying to hobble the lore based on my taste.
I am not making redundant threads about a need or desire for a Light based expansion. While you are making redundant threads about why you don’t like the possible theme for an expansion or patch that hasn’t even been announced.
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@Cursewords, I acknowledge the current position of the Mag’har/AU Draenei part of the the lore and call it out for the illogical, unclear, unreasonable, grimderp mess that it is; that’s why I keep making these threads you call redundant. I’ll make these sort of threads when pertinent, and none of your attempts to undermine or provoke me will change that. Why can’t you say that I’m also right about how illogical and poorly-written the current story is since you acknowledged Raselle is right?
I’ve already shared Lightbound quotes about Grom. Why do you think Yrel wasn’t a former Iron Horde slave when it’s clear and obvious canon she was? Proof; read Yrel’s page on Wowpedia and/or replay the WoD content. I’m not trying to hobble the lore, I’m calling for consistency, logic and less cliché edginess. Plus numerous people have said the current writers have hobbled the lore plenty already.
Which orcs have heard the whisper? Pale Orcs, Void worshipers? Desecration of Yrel’s mind, then the Void will spread to the Mother of Light. The Void considered the path of the Light to be correct … no?
What does “casus belly” mean? Minor occasion (?), behind which are hidden serious causes (?)?
What? I never argued against that. I argued that she no longer expressed her condition of previous servitude as a reason to remain angry at the Maghar.
The Draenei put those feelings aside after the events of WoD.
You seem confused. Let me try and simplify it.
Raselle made a few statements. Some of it is opinion. Some is fact. I agree with the fact.
(Hope Raselle doesn’t mind their name being used so much. But you made good points. Especially since Thadeus seems hung up on me liking your post.)
Raselle said :
(the normal text is what I deem as opinion, the bolded is the lore based fact I see and agreed with)
Logical? Reasonable? Satisfying? Those seem like extremes of opinion. I am not agreeing with that. It seemed fine to me.
We also don’t know Yrel’s side. Or the side of her followers. We only have half the story. The Orc’s half. We don’t know if they were brain washed or indoctrinated. We might find out they were willing. So I don’t agree, there. We don’t know why they are fighting, and who is wrong.
But on the bolded part… that is the fact.
They had put their past behind them. They began to cooperate as societies and respect each other. And then a new conflict started for new reasons.
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Logic isn’t a matter of opinion. Your attempt to misrepresent me to Raselle won’t work because people can read our full comments. Funny that you’re talking about “two sides of the story” to Raselle since you’ve shown yourself to be keen on Yrel’s side being in the wrong, including in this thread. And we shouldn’t put words into Raselle’s mouth, as they can speak for themselves about what they meant.
Or it was a tense respect. It was embarrassing to kill your captor (or oppress your slave) when the leaders of each race shook hands. Then a million small reasons to hate each other accumulated (culinary, architectural, religious, incorrectly broken egg), and it turned out that no one forgot anything.
…
Can parallels be drawn to the orc invasion of Ashenvale after Hyjal?
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I may be wrong, but wasn’t the schism between the Draenei and Orcs more a result of Draenor’s decline originally? The world was in decline, AU Xe’ra shows up and the Draenei immediately rally behind her to save the world, while the Mag’har believe the Light is the cause of the slow decline of Draenor?
You’re pretty close. The cause of the deterioration of AU Draenor is currently a he said/she said situation Mag’har blame the Light and the AU Draenei blame the Mag’har - literally between Grom and Yrel at the end of the Mag’har recruitment scenario. Among WoW fans, there’s a popular theory that the deterioration is the product of AU Draenor being an alternate timeline.
Cursewords@ you cherry-picked the following quote of mine “The fact that AU Draenei are sore over the Iron Horde is logical and based on how AU Grom was still alive, many Draenei lost a lot to them - Yrel herself is a former Iron Horde slave…” and your response was, quote (bold added for emphasis); “Those two statements of yours go against current lore. And she described why. That is why I liked her post.”
“Casus belli” (am I using this expression correctly?). Even if it’s the end of the world. Well, isn’t this a reason to kill everyone you don’t like, hiding behind the salvation of the world? In addition, the phrase of Geyara (her name was that?) About the murder of the draenei of Azeroth, who did nothing to her.