A better expansion idea than “Light Crusade”

[Tammy-wyrmrest-accord]

@Renautus-arathor

Actually, it seems like many countries in Africa are still Authoritarian governments. Africa didn’t begin de-colonization until the 1990’s so they are still really new to democracy. There’s no statistics that I could find that support your argument. If you would like to provide some examples of black majority democracies in Africa, I would appreciate you fact checking your own arguments.

What happened in Africa is the same thing you see in a lot of post-colonial nations.

The colonial powers spent centuries exploiting the regions for economic/political motives, and created institutions that were more convenient for that than actually governing the local people. Borders, laws, etc were drawn with literal regard for the people.

Little in terms of infrastructure not centered around extracting resources or ferrying the rich and powerful colonials/military forces from one big city to another. Telecommunications existed largely insofar as it could be used to keep colonials in touch and/or mass broadcast propaganda to keep people in line.

When the colonist powers finally pulled out, there was little groundwork laid out for actual transitions of power. Just up and out with a “figure it out yourself” when the situation was already pretty messed up due to their intervention to begin with.

And since they still have economic/strategic interests, it’s not been uncommon to intervene whenever leaders who don’t want to play ball get out of line, or popular uprisings mean “the wrong side” might win.

What happened in Afghanistan is not new by any stretch.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I’m not misrepresenting your claims, as it’s not a strawman to point out things you actually do.

Just, like I figured you would, you made yet another thread wherein you proceed to argue that Xe’ra was justified and try to drag on Illidan. That, plus the week you’ve spent going back and forth with others in this thread really does show that such conduct is really more of a you thing.

Why do you see me as a threat? If you didn’t see me as a threat, you wouldn’t bother to respond to me, nor give such verbose replies. What are you trying to accomplish when you reply to me? What do you consider a best-case scenario? Upon reflection, we’re not so different, you and I. Just on opposite sides of a few things.

Now, which new thread specifically are you talking about where you think I was trying to justify Xe’ra?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You should know that my definition is the correct one because every time you’ve tried to go back and forth correcting me on the proper definition/use of a word, you’ve been wrong every time.

Because you’re so prone to being passive aggressive, I’ll give you a very direct direction to as to avoid confusion. Type “I don’t desire to continue this discussion with you. I’m not responding to you anymore.” and then actually doing that. If indeed, that is your wish.

What have I done that makes you think I’m being passive-aggressive, and where did you get your definition from? If I decide I don’t want to continue the discussion anymore, I’ll use your approach.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Blizzard’s increasingly tendency to have the Alliance be a bunch of passive peaceniks sitting around doing nothing until the Horde decides to spark conflict by turning into the very image of the industrialized dark empire they were originally meant to subvert is what’s been messing the story over. It’s moving away from exploring the cultural and political landscape of the world hasn’t helped either.

Lack of continuity and huge retcons, zigzagging characters have always been a thing in Blizzard and are the lesser of its writing troubles. The lore has always been a mess. That’s not what’s been screwing it over lately.

You’re right about the lore being a mess, even if we disagree about some of the causes. The political and cultural landscape of the world tends to change based on which characters the writers like, which ones they dislike and which character changes the fans are loudest about. If only we, the fans, had put our feet down sooner and not accepted Blizzard changing the lore based on the time of day, the season, and the phases of the moon.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Indeed, it doesn’t show us what all Xe’ra could be planning before she springs it on us. You’re wrong in that it doesn’t show prior intent, as it clearly shows her jumping straight to nonconsensual transmogrification. Asking question, then doing what you wanted to do without letting the other party even answer shows prior intent and disregard for consent.

With no proof that the attempt to forcibly Lightforge Illidan was pre-mediated, claiming that it was is nothing more than theorycrafting or headcanon at this point, and flinging the word “consent” around as a buzzword and dog whistle won’t change that.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You repeatedly argued the fact Onslaught operated in Northrend and not in Lordaeron as evidence of them refuting the Crusade, when in reality, it’s a continuation of it. The use of Death Knights is the only demonstrable difference, but as shown, the Crusade did use Shadow Magic and even when most of its members became Undead themselves, they continued their fighting. We don’t see them communicate with anyone, but considering they had an established harbor and had to resupply and get in recruits it’s not like they were cut off. I’m glad you’re finally acknowledging that there still exist Crusaders to be contacted back in Lordaeron.

At least you conceded one of the differences between the Onslaught and the Crusade; the Onslaught’s use of Death Knights. But there are other differences. Reclaiming Lorderaen was always a primary goal of the Scarlet Crusade, which the Onslaught gave up. And the Scarlet Onslaught was founded in WotLK, the Scarlet Crusade wasn’t wiped out until later, in Legion.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You already admitted to viewing Blizzard’s treatment off the Light as both an extension of their views on religion in general- and your religion in particular, as well as an extension of society’s disrespect for institutions of authority. You tried to make the argument supporting Turalyon’s obedience to Xe’ra by asking what I would do if the state imprisons our loved ones.

You continued to both simultaneously argue that Xe’ra was in the right, Turalyon was right to support her, and how you wouldn’t defy authority that locked up your family. All because you view such things as “tough but fair” and consider the very existence of people with authority over us, even when it’s wrong, to be necessary.

My refusal to abide unjust acts by the state is not the result of my cousin’s situation. It predates it by some time. I’ve already defied unjust authority on the behalf of strangers, so doing it for family is not a huge ask.

And you keep making the same arguments in favor of unquestioning obedience to the state in your other discussions in this thread.

I’m not going to stop tell the truth just because you want to lie.

I’d also conceded that they aren’t the same while noticing parallels and the attitudes in society and Blizzard’s writhers (given the direction they’re taking the story, and how poorly implemented that writing is). You being in denial of what I actually said about Turalyon, whether the authorities incarcerate my family on a case-by-case basis and my limited respect for government won’t change that.

What are you going to do if the authorities you’re concerned about catch your cousin, and then treat him fairly and safely while handing out a proportionate, non-draconican punishment?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Alleria consorted with the Locus Walker to help find a way to fight the Legion, who she’d already heard ahead of time was able to use the Void. Xe’ra, who hates the void, told her that she’d never work with it because Xe’ra has such and dislike of the Void she didn’t even let it be known that nauru enter a Void state as part of their cycle because that would tie her to it in some way. When Alleria discovered the Locus Walker potentially made a new ally in the fight against the Legion and later used the Void to save lives, Xe’ra was so angry that she used the Void that she imprisoned her for an indeterminate time/life, which is an unjust punishment because Xe’ra failed to show what harm Alleria did or crime she broke.

We know Xe’ra dislikes the Void, but I was asking WHY Xe’ra dislikes the Void, which you didn’t answer. And you didn’t answer the next three questions;

• Why would anyone hate the Void?
• How was it an unjust ruling given the relevance of the answers for the first two questions?
• How is that self-righteous given the relevance of answers for the first three?

We’re getting somewhere; Xe’ra didn’t explain to Alleria the problem with using the Void and she should have. That would’ve helped (funnily that’s one thing Xe’ra and Illidan had in common; not good at getting their points across or explaining their reasoning sometimes).

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Ignorance is not bad. Nobody knows everything. Your issue is a general lack of desire to educate yourself on things when you’re able. Rather than actual research to learn basic facts about the things you’re talking about, you demand evidence they exist, and then want to argue them because they don’t match your preestablished conceptions- which are generally wrong.

Also, in Vanilla, we were tasked with stopping the revival of Hakkar by his Voodoo wielding allies, lest they drench the world in a new era of bloodshed. Then during Rise of the Zandalari in Cataclysm, we had to do it again. And then in Battle for Azeroth, we had to try and stop the Blood Trolls allied with Zul from reviving another ‘blood loa’ in the form of G’huun. And it was the loa Mueh’zala allied with the Jailer that helped put BfA and Shadowlands into action.

I ask people to do research to make them think. G’huun was no “blood loa”, G’huun was an artificial Old God – a Void entity – accidentally made by the Titans. The blood trolls called him a loa, but he wasn’t one. While you’re right about Hakkar, I’m not sure whether Mueh’zala counts, since he’s working with the Jailer and even before then was affiliated with the force Death. By the time we encounter the loa in the game, Bwonsamdi is the Loa of Death (and he escaped the villain bat).

It’s not about antagonistic Shamans or Priests or Paladins, but their powers. And what about the part where I pointed out that the elementals were influenced by outside forces? While I said Decay, when Ragnaros and Al’akir went villainous, along with several of their forces, there was Void influence involved.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

So, in addition to the fact that Blizzard has indeed portrayed some Shamans as antagonistic, we’ve also encountered antagonistic elementals who are just doing what elementals do to the extreme -which isn’t necessarily in the best for Azerothians and result in lots of death. So we have to fight against them without all elementals being cast as evil. So giving the Light the same treatment is not an attack on religion or casting the entirety of the Light and all nauru as evil either.

Given the “quality” of Blizzard’s writing, the current Anglosphere zeitgeist, and how all this “bad side of the Light” stuff involves plot holes, retcons and copious use of the villain bat… press ‘X’ to doubt.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You’re straight up ignoring the fact that their black and white stories have been even worse and black and white stories in general are even more cliche while presenting poorly thought out versions as an alternative. You’re arguing against it in a very passive aggressive manner.

Explain how black and white stories have been supposedly worse and cliché? Morally grey stories are older and more frequent than you think.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

That you keep drawing comparisons between the Scarlets and those groups by leaving out the more obvious parallels to the Christian Crusades and making yet another in a long line of inaccurate/false statements makes it altogether clear you don’t really know much about them even as you keep trying to draw such comparisons.

Why do you think I’m ignoring Christian Crusaders when I repeatedly brought up a Christian military order founded during during the era of the Crusades and that fought in the Crusades and beyond?