A better expansion idea than “Light Crusade”

To be more serious than inundating Azeroth with a tidal wave of chihauhuas, I want a sequel to BFA that actually tries to fix the ####storm that was that expansion.

Do I expect it to be done, let alone well done? Hell no.

I’d set it in a new continent on the other side of Azeroth that has no connection with the Horde or Alliance, I think ones based off of the Indochina/Indonesia/Australia area. An archipelago with two larger islands at each end. The main native civilization would be a peaceful offshoot of the naga. Maybe some trolls, sethrak, drogbar added in here and there. At least seven zones, one faction exclusive starting zone each at opposite ends of the map ala WoD, then four leveling ones, then the max level zone close to the center being a great half-sunken temple city semi-inspired by Angkor Wat.

The main villains would be Azshara and Xal’atath, the leftovers from BFA. The reason we’re here at all is we’re hunting them for doing something nasty; that is, something NEW nasty, like sabotaging and slaughtering a Faction peace making attempt. After BFA they fled here, have overthrown the good naga, and spent the last year plotting to ascend to full Old Godhood themselves. The last zone’s storyline (recruiting/building a resistance, then subtly infiltrate and sabotage the enemy) would be kind of a rip-off of Suramar’s from Legion, I admit, but as long as it’s a good rip-off I don’t care too much. I’d also like Magatha Grimtotem join the enemy because she’s evil and I wanna get to kill her as a final dungeon boss or early raid boss (absorbing/controlling evil elementals or something?)

The Anti-War Campaign! We would go back to our home continents from time to time to help prevent the Factions from going back into all-out war from time to time. There would be quests of the Horde actually trying to fix up some of the damage they caused until Sylvanas and even earlier (primarily healing Darkshore and Ashenvale) and new boundaries are set between them as lands are claimed for one side or the other. The alliance get a quest to finally re-take Gilneas. The horde get a quest to claim total control of the Plaguelands, with Strat becoming the new capital and the Ruins of Undercity becoming a dungeon. Alterac is taking over by a mix of forsaken and Frostwolves. Both sides have political intrigue to deal with. The Horde Council can’t always agree and are so resource poor that they can’t really afford to pay for repairing everything the Horde broke, and the Nobles of Stormwind (among others) are sick of King Jesus and want to push for a chance to finish off the Horde once and for all. Alliance zealots are joining a resurgent Scarlet Whatever. Gallywix has been spotted somewhere, off to hunt him! how well is Calia really dealing with the Forsaken (not well, but she’s putting in some genuine effort, and they do at least appreciate that).

Basically, actually deal with, in a remotely reasonably way, the twisted burning mess that BFA left the Faction Conflict and try to ####ing fix it instead of running off to another dimension so we can watch more of the ‘Anduin and Sylvanas Show’ (will they finally kiss or not!?).

I would have a return of MoP-style Scenarios, at least a dozen of them, and roughly 8 starting dungeons, with a new one added for patches .1, .2, and then two more linked ones tied into .3’s story, like how Wrath added FoS PoS and HoR or Cata added ET, WoE and HoT so that even if you never raided you at least got to feel like you experienced an important part of the ‘end story’.

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I was actually fine with the Final Boss being the Absolute Monarchist with the Messianic Complex who finally went off the deep end when everyone who’d kept her on a moral leash died and just decided “Since I am good, anyone who disagrees with me is evil (since everyone who disagreed with me in the past was evil, that still applies NOW)!” …except the real Final Boss is sorta actually the immortal body-jacking sorcerer who’s been manipulating everyone and wins in the end by becoming king. And presumably will remain king forever, since he can just declare someone his heir and body-jack THEM when his current body gets too old. Seriously, Bloodraven is actually pretty cool if you read the prequels.

But, it really did need to be paced/foreshadowed better.

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Again, that is presumptuous, since we haven’t seen the story of Yrel becoming a villain yet.

As far as Character progression for Daenerys, it isn’t what I wanted for her, but it was certainly hinted at as part of her Character arc.

There was a steady build up for Daenerys possibly going mad. So it wasn’t out of left field. Many Characters remarked that for every wise and good Targaryan, there was a crazy one. That it was almost a flip of a coin. That came up often.

Yrel has not been described as descended from a family known for being Mad. So that isn’t part of her story.

As I have said throughout this thread - Yrel’s story is not written. Your certitude about what may happen does not mean the story is confined to it.

Put aside the personal attacks and libel and let’s focus on the lore. Your arguments raise more questions than answers, among other things.

Xe’ra was used to prime - pun intended - the naaru for the villain-bat according to the writers themselves (“not necessarily good from the players’ perspective” indeed; do you really trust the words of the dev team after everything that’s happened in-game and real life?). What was the point of giving the Naaru a Void form and setting up the Void as WoW’s ultimate evil above even the Burning Legion… if they were going to introduce villainous Light Naaru later? Why retcon the Naaru from angels to vorlons? And when does Xe’ra manipulate Turalyon or our PCs against their initial desires?

We also have Yrel getting the villain-bat, Turalyon being set for the villain bat despite his character growth and experiences, and Velen’s now skeptical of the Light according to Danuser (sounds like lead-up to the stereotypical religious character fate; fanatic, apostate and/or dead). You’re still grasping at straws about the Scarlet Crusade… but we don’t need them to still be around when the Scarlet Brotherhood are a thing, especially if ISIS, for comparison, can be the threat you claimed.

Why do you assume what effects Lightforging has on the Mag’har despite acknowledging we haven’t seen its effects? Why is it okay for the Mag’har to not mention the Iron Horde when tooling around with the Iron Horde’s former leader with no word on his punishment or atonement despite everything they’ve been through? What makes you think Geya’rah isn’t biased when she clearly is given her genocidal anti-Draenei hatred? Even if what you said is true, we have to wait and see what the Mag’har under Yrel’s authority are like; cultural genocide isn’t instantaneous.

On that note, if there’s no agenda behind the story, why change the Light at all? If it’s to pander to the fanbase, why has that storyline become popular? What I said about human nature doesn’t make me wrong. I don’t know which Final Fantasy game had that light/order villain motif, but that type of story has become cliché; the Elric saga had it too, as does Warhammer, along with several other groups I’ve mentioned, and that’s just scratching the surface.

Point is, it’s cliché and badly written here, and no amount of attacking a strawman by pretending I conflate the ills of society with thinking for yourself, freedom or empathy will change that. Showing indifference and distaste for authority “Rah-Rah Stick it to The Man!” “Viva la revolución!” isn’t automatically cool, smart or brave; without good reasons, it can even be paranoid or puerile, trading actual emotional and intellectual challenge for a short term high provided by vindictive anger or malcontent that assures us of our own correctness at the expense of our perceived enemies.

Have you heard the complaints about BfA regarding how the expansion tried to cram too much in? Or the ones about how quickly N’Zoth was defeated? It’s telling that an increasing amount of arguments about WoW’s lore are a matter of “which retcons do we like better”? Are you familiar with the comic “Holy Terror?” There’s a few reasons I call the prospective Light Crusade story “Yrel’s Holy Terror”.

Funnily enough the Vorlons’ chief agent Valen was the basis of Velen. Blizzard had Babylon 5 on their thoughts even by the point when they first conceived of Naaru… Them not thinking of making the Naaru as bad as Vorlons by that point surprises me…

But don’t you think the one-sided Mag’har recruitment scenario expects us to assume the worst of Yrel and her group? Especially given how they’re portrayed?

It wasn’t what I wanted for Daenerys either. Also, the foreshadowing was more in the books than the show, and it might not even be foreshadowing; it might’ve been there just to keep the reader guessing before the conclusion. Also, having Dany go crazy throws away that “coin toss” motif, since her brother Viserys was already the crazy one (he was his father’s son, but without the power to get away with it for a long period of time). As for prior generations, Aemon was the head to his brother “Mad King” Aerys’ tail.

The fact that the story went in that direction with Yrel bodes ill.

The fact that it wasn’t paced or foreshadowed better - in conjunction with it contradicting Dany’s prior personality - is why I call bad writing.

When one says it can be “the toss of a coin” it means that one outcome is as likely as the other. Meaning a Targaryan is just as likely as being wise and prudent as they are being mad. If you toss a coin twice, it can end up heads both times, or tails both times. It is not guaranteed to alternate between heads or tails.

Jon Snow was probably the example of one of the saner Targaryans.

I dont think so.

Even in the Horde Only Scenario, Yrel’s motivations are ambiguous. As I mentioned before, Yrel’s pamphlet calls the Maghar noble allies. It isn’t the typical “Forsaken/Trolls/Orcs are evil and must die!!!” Alliance stuff. And she isn’t ranting evil things like Kel Thuzad. She already has some nuance.

She isn’t portrayed as someone who we should assume the worst, even to Horde Players. We see both sides argue, and we don’t know who is right - all we know is the Maghar are about to be conquered, and we need more troops.

Blizzard is so loathe to make the Alliance seem villainous, even in a Horde only scenario, that I am not so sure Yrel is going to be a villain. And if she is evil for a moment, she will probably turn good just in time to say:

“Draenor is free… again!”

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She isn’t, oh my god. I know we like to meme on Blizzard’s writing and stuff, but to me it’s very clear that Yrel is supposed to be “confused and misled” instead of an outright evil villain.

Once again, she clearly does not want to hurt the orcs. That is not her goal. I know Thad for some reason desperately wants it to be her goal, but it’s not. She wants to “help them”.

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I don’t want hurting Orcs to be her goal. I want her to not get the villain-bat… but she is because we, for some reason, apparently have to have a “Light Crusade” story.

But making her be misled by her faith would be a far smaller villain-bat than if her goals were to destroy the orcs out of vengeance.

And you already said that you care about Yrel more than you do about the Light.

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It would be smaller, but it would also be less lazy writing. Don’t you think having religious characters becoming villains via getting fanatical is overused? How many villainous religious characters have you seen in fiction who weren’t fanatical?

Plus there’s valid reasons for Yrel to be vengeful - everything she and her people endured from the Iron Horde, plus AU Grom alive, well and seemingly unpunished. What if the war started with the Mag’har shielding AU Grom and other Iron Horde survivors from Draenei justice and things went downhill from there? At any rate, I think Yrel’s story has been poorly written.

So you want Yrel to actually be a bad person, to actually do bad things because she genuinely wants to cause harm to (innocent) people, instead of… making an honest mistake? Reminder, again, she isn’t just asking to put Grom in jail, she wants all Maghar to be converted to Light. And she, apparently, is killing people who were on her side in the Iron Horde conflict.

Oh, and it would also require a retcon. Because we already know that she isn’t just waging war for the sake of waging war. She is not asking for justice for the Draenei, she is “saving everyone”.

I think it’s less overused than characters becoming hateful because they have been harmed by [group] in the past.

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Are you trying to defend Yrel or religious zealotry?

Because it seems like the latter.

But knowing that you yourself are a religious extreemist, it makes sense why you would be so quick to defend religious extreemism.

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How can we put aside personal matters when you’ve admitted that you reasons for your positions are indeed rooted in your personal beliefs? Particularly your belief that people and WoW are conspiring against you, authority, religion in general and your faith specifically?

Why are you dropping all our previous lines of discussions, leaving many of my questions unanswered and your claims unsupported- only to start over with the exact same bad arguments you started with? I mean I at least appreciate that you didn’t start a whole new thread to do it this time.

But you don’t care about lore. Or retcons. Or what actually constitutes good writing. You just want Blizzard to use the Light as the vehicle for your personal views. You have decided this position ahead of time and are scrambling to to try and retroactively justify it while refusing to change your mind or admit where you’re clearly wrong.

Xe’ra is not stated to have been presented to villain bat all the naruu. Indeed, it’s explained that naruu are individuals and have different goals and agendas and don’t all share the exact same beliefs, and Xe’ra exists as an extreme example of that. Because showing is better than just telling. That’s actual good writing.

The Void was not put forward as the ultimate evil, beyond even the Legion. The Legion has been more or less behind the major conflicts of the RTS and central to two out of eight expansions. The void gets, at most, a patch where an old god shows up and gets put down. In Legion, it’s revealed that both the Light and the Void considered the Legion a mutual threat. Additionally, we’ve faced villains and antagonists wielding the Arcane, Light, and other cosmic forces, who have been shown to be wielded for good and bad. That consistency when applied to the Light is an example of good writing.

I trust Blizzard to do what it has done before. Give us an expansion wherein some big cosmic monster shows up wielding some cosmic power, the Horde/Alliance team up, along align with people who also wield that power, and we fight a bunch of constructs/cultists. And in the end, the bad guy is defeated and were more or less return to something approaching the status quo. And I expect lots of the many naruu we’ve seen, Priest King Anduin, Priestess Queen Calia and Prophet Velen (who is still a follower of the Light) to remain good guys because Blizzard has always presented us with plenty of good high profile Light users as well.

The Light is being changed - in that we’re getting new characters, new elements, and greater breadth/depth- because the Light has always been changing in that way. There was once a time when “the Light” didn’t even exist in the Warcraft universe. A time when there weren’t Priests or Paladins. A time when where there wasn’t a Church of the Light. A time when there weren’t Draenei. A time when there weren’t Naruu. A time when there wasn’t Anduin or Velen or Yrel or Turalyon. A time when the Light wasn’t a fundamental force involved in the formation of the universe. A time when the Light wasn’t at war with the Legion or the Void. All of these are changes the Light has undergone in lore over the years. And as of Legion -which was already 6 years ago- it’s undergoing more changes. Changes that actually make it more consistent with how the rest of the cosmology has developed. It’s also maintaining many things it has since near the beginning, like feeding off of conviction and the fact that it can be wielded by bad people doing bad things for bad reasons. The Light’s never been all good or all bad, and this hasn’t changed.

Similarly, the Void has changed over the history of the Warcraft franchise. It was not always called the Void. It was not always at war with the Light. There were not always Old Gods or Void Lords. The Void is now a fundamental cosmic force that’s helped create reality and Azeroth. We have seen non-villainous void entities and entities that wield Void powers for the good of Azeroth. It now opposes the the Fel as well. But one thing since near the beginning is that the Shadow/Void can be used for good and bad. This is consistent with how the rest of the cosmological powers have been playing out.

Scarlets and their ideology still exist and even a scant few members of the Crusade still exist. The Scarlets as a whole and the Crsaude specifically have bounced back from greatly reduced numbers several times throughout WoW’s history. It shows a blatant lack of pattern recognition to deny that they could do so again. Not bringing them back in an expansion about a hypothetical Light Crusade when they’ve so long been tied to it in the narrative and laid down the narrative framework facilitating their return would be bad writing.

I know (not assume) the potential brainwashing/manipulative effects of Lightforging on Mag’har because I’ve seen the actual effects of Lightforging on Turalyon; who never disobeyed Xe’ra, even when it meant imprisoning his own lover. I’ve also seen how AU Xe’ra uses an even more extreme version on her Lightbound forces, as we’ve been told and seen both Mag’har and Yrel turn against their former allies. Turalyon couldn’t resist Lightforging and has expressed no desire to rebel against any version of Xe’ra. There’s nothing suggesting he will be initially more resistant to the more intense coercion, up to and including Lightbinding. Although, this gives him an out in that if he can be brought from under her influence by the intervention of a third party, he can yet be saved. Same with Yrel. And many others.

Grey’ah’s biases don’t matter in that everything she tells us about the Lightbound is also something we also see happening, or is backed up and elaborated upon by Yrel. The Lightbound, led by Xe’ra, turned on their Mag’har allies after the defeat of the Iron Horde, Legion 30 years ago. Now they are committing genocide against the people on Draenor and forcibly converting people to their forces.

The point is that exploring the complexity and moral grayness of the human experience in fiction is not cliche or badly written here. No moreso than any other concept WoW has ever done. No amount of attacking a strawman by pretending that the only people interested in such a story are edgy teenagers, or anti-authority, or anti-religion will change that. Maintaining blind obedience to authority, thinking your faith is the only one that’s right and entertaining black and white thinking isn’t automatically mature or wise. In fact, it can even be limiting and very harmful; trading actual emotional and intellectual challenges for a short term high provided by righteous anger that assures us of our own correctness at the expense of our perceived enemies.

Have you heard the complains about BFA in that people want to see the Alliance go on the offense or experience its own internal conflict? Or the ones about how they want to see Anduin’s leadership challenged? Or how people want to actually see Yrel’s story play out in more detail? Or see the whole Alleria/Locus Walker/Void Elf thing developed into something more than just a dropped plot point to justify not! High Elves in the Alliance.

But you don’t really care about any of the above because your problem is specifically with the Light in general and Xe’ra, Yrel and Turalyon specifically not being portrayed as endorsing your personal beliefs. And you’re willing to engage in retcons and bad writing to make it so.

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In Wrath, Death was all the theme, but it’s not cosmic

In Legion, only the Argus part is cosmic, everything before it was grounded

In BfA, void themes occur here and there, it is not cosmic

Surely 10.0 Light Crusade can be as grounded as possible as long as we don’t go on a Light realm, meet Light Lords, or save the reality of the Light

The Scarlets, Lightbound, and Lightforged just so happen that they share the same fanaticism of the Light. But their not cosmic armies or forces

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Even though we do meet the Titans in the tail end of Legion, I wouldn’t really call it cosmic, at least not on the same scale as Shadowlands since the Titans exist in our reality and have been in the story for a long time. We didn’t go to some Arcane only plane to meet with them either.

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We can move past the personal when you stop misrepresenting me and my reasons. I think it would be better if we stuck to the main issue instead of maligning people. Which previous questions and lines of discussion did I supposedly leave unanswered? Also, trying to turn my words against me doesn’t work without facts or understanding (righteous anger is no mere “short term high” – what makes it righteous, for one?)

The Void was retconned into being an evil above the Legion; retconned into a threat even Sargeras fears, that it wants to make a Void Titan that could defeat even Sargeras and unmake the universe, plus defeating it was the reason he made the Burning Legion in the first place. And an Alleria/Locus Walker/Void plot that sounds like exactly the sort of thing a Void-centric expansion could use. The Void was also behind the villains of Cataclysm – Deathwing (with N’Zoth “signing his checks” according the devs), the Naga and Ragnaros; hardly just “a patch where an old god shows up and gets put down”.

Lore isn’t consistent when its chock-full of retcons, such as the things getting added – which you pointed out - to the Light like the Naaru and Lightforging or the Void gaining Old Gods and bug slave races (a different concept from those mutated by the Curse of Flesh) or the Draenei being inserted in BC.

Some changes are less bad or better written than others, but they’re still retcons and Light Crusade relies on a couple and poor writing… like making MU Xe’ra a jobber for Illidan and having AU Xe’ra as a – poorly written – antagonist; talk about having your cake and eating it too. Also the Jailer - the bland, Thanos-knockoff BBEG of Shadowlands - has more depth than Xe’ra.

I know some people want internal conflict with the Alliance, to explore Yrel’s story and to see Anduin’s leadership challenged; but why do some of them think it can’t be done without a Light Crusade story arc? Not to mention a lot of fans of Draenei - or just Yrel - weren’t happy with her going all “Holy Terror”. What proof is there in the lore that the Scarlet Crusade kept bouncing back? Especially when lore states they were wiped out. Dwindling until they’re wiped out while we contend with a breakaway group and a copycat group isn’t them “bouncing back”.

I agree with you that showing over telling is good writing. This is generally true, but only when the writing is consistent or logical. I always agreed with you that moral greyness and being able to question authority isn’t limited to edgelords, angsty teens, ideologues and contrarians. But it is also popular with those groups and either overused or poorly used when in stories written by - or pandering to – people from those demographics.

Calia has royal heritage but hasn’t been coronated queen, and Lilian was appointed the closest thing to a Forsaken leader for now. What do you think they’ll do with Velen’s skepticism? So Turalyon standing between Alleria and Xe’ra and arguing with Xe’ra doesn’t count as disobedience? You keep using Alleria as an appeal to fans’ emotions rather than facts. As for the Iron Horde, it’s sloppy that AU Grom -for one - gets whitewashed and AU Draka forgets all about her dead brothers-in-law, Ga’nar and Fenris. What does Geya’rah tell us that we see happen? Do we see Mag’har switch sides or get forcibly converted in that scenario?

Well, to be fair, the Vorlon were pictured as pretty good until suddenly they weren’t.
Most who saw Kosh outside the suit never got Sheridan’s understanding that it was a cultivated image, not actually what a Vorlon was.

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No, I actually never wanted Yrel’s Draenei and the post-Iron-Horde Mag’har to be at war. I think they never should’ve gone the “Holy Terror” route with Yrel and co. in the first place.

On that note, I wasn’t asking whether that fanaticism trope is the most overused cliché, I was just asking if it is overused - which you admitted it is, in a backhanded way.

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I wouldn’t say it’s a super original idea, but I wouldn’t say it’s overused.

So what, you never wanted a Draenei vs. Maghar war, but you’re still advocating for it because to you it’s still better than Yrel being confused with her faith?

Why aren’t you making threads about how Yrel and Maghar should be friends, then? Why do you keep talking about her oh so justified grudges, how those should have been the reason for their war and not the Light?

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