9.1 PTR Elune Feedback SPOILERS

[Shernish-nazjatar]

But we have become numb. We are not developing. And our time is long gone. It’s time to die under the onslaught of young, adaptive, innovative monsters.
How can you be formidable if you are an old man with a sword, and the enemy is a newfangled infected with a machine gun in his hands?
So are we going to make a deal for the dying orcs?

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Faranoth-nordrassil

The irony being that the other races more often than not invalidate their own strengths

Sure, like the the fact Void Elves now outclass Forsaken and Shadowmoon Orcs in Void.

Or how Jaina out-mages both Blood Elves and Nightborne who should be her betters in Arcane magic due to thousands of years of practice.

It’s just Blizzard writing par for the course.

[Garriah-scarlet-crusade]

@Shernish-nazjatar

Shall we make a deal? The orcs will destroy themselves on their own. They finally realized that they were weak-willed bloodthirsty monsters.

@Shernish-nazjatar

Shall we make a deal?

@Shernish-nazjatar

About glass ceilings. How do you like this option - we will take revenge on all our offenders, and then go into isolation, rot and wither, for the next ten thousand years?

@Shernish-nazjatar

So are we going to make a deal for the dying orcs?

Nobody here is making any unhinged deals, good lord…

[Shernish-nazjatar]

I accept the destruction of the night elf fantasy. You are destroying the orc fantasy. “Equality is bad.”

Do you want to bargain? Suggest something and I’ll try to balance it.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Shernish-nazjatar

It’s time to die under the onslaught of young, adaptive, innovative monsters.

Or they could do what LIFE does when faced with a new environment? Adapt? There is an alternative to “die”?

And its not like they need to adapt that much, and they have in several areas, but in terms of military tech and tactics. They are a bit outdated. Like, truly, what would have happened if the ENTIRE Horde’s navy and airforce wasn’t just gone at the end of Legion (yet the Alliance can still spare a dozen ships to hunt down the Zandalari princess lol)? And just decided to forgo Ashenvale and Darkshore entirely to attack the island capital that was the objective to capture and hold? Could the NEs really do much? Their naval power just sort of seems to exist in the form of glorified troop transports, that are expected to be formidable because … they’re expected to be. Even the NEs airforce, outside of Chimera riders … again kind of boils down to glorified troop transports. And their Glaive Throwers are anti-cavalry/anti-infantry focused … not really anti-artillery or anti-air.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Nothing in the lore really supports them being as powerful as some NE fans seems to expect.

This here is what I was talking about earlier. Droité will pivot to any tone that would fit at any moment to try to put the Night Elves in a bad light, regardless of what that light is. If it’s convenient for Droité to chime in to make random claims that the Night Elves are not that strong then that’s what Droité will do. Or if it’s convenient to take the entirely opposite contradictory angle and complain that the Night Elves are portrayed as too powerful that is also what Droité will do.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Am I missing something here?

This certainly can change, but with all the missing content and the current dialogue in the corner … it sort of appears that the conjoined forces of the covenants were being overwhelmed up until that cutscene point; and then Tyrande appears and all the enemy forces disappear? And that its sort of implied that she single handedly pushed them back?

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Where as it currently honestly seems to imply that Tyrande one-woman-armied back the forces of the Maw; that were overwhelming the conjoined forces of the Covenants?

@Droité-black-dragonflight

Just stop pretending the powder shattered remains of bowls around you are better than what you have. Solely because Humans have a prestine goblet. Also, don’t expect the NEs to be demigods. WC3 has built up way too many unrealistic expectations about what to expect from the NE power fantasy, most of which are based off a largely out of context quote from Grom.

@Droité-black-dragonflight

And even despite that Blizz outright writes a short story telling us how if both Malf and Tyrande were on the field at the same time; or if 90 percent of the NEs military forces weren’t deterred away; the ENTIRE Horde could not hope to defeat them alone? And how just Malf alone and a skeleton civilian police force were able to hold the line against like 8 to 1 odds, and even grind the Horde forces to a complete halt twice?

@Droité-black-dragonflight

But as of what we can see at this point, it seems as though the cooperative forces of all four covenants were being pushed to the breaking point and Tyrande alone comes in and (despite exhausting herself in the process) singlehandedly pushes the Maw forces to retreat.

[Faranoth-nordrassil]

Honestly the void = shadow thing really annoys me to this day. They just threw out the CotFS tenets in one go. And made it impossible for shadow to be a valid religion without old God nonsense.

[Verynn-lightbringer]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

So Elune makes the Trolls, decides they suck and “perfects” a handful to Night Elves? And a bunch of Wild Gods are thus even more dumb for not being pro Elune Worshippers?

Elune didn’t “perfect” them, she chose them when they were still Dark Trolls. Trolls spending all their time hanging out by the Well of Eternity caused them to change as a side effect. Similar to many other ancient peoples, the Night Elves came up with some story of how they came to be because they didn’t understand how magical evolution worked.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Faranoth-nordrassil

They just threw out the CotFS tenets in one go.

And changed the canon so that:

• the religion died, and the Forsaken weren’t practicing it at all
• Natalie Seline didn’t die-die properly because woo woo void
• Natalie Seline is a Living Human now

But they updated the character model with one of the Black Woman™ customization options!

So -3 + 1 = -2

(Really wish they’d add the Human Customization Options for the undead sometimes so they could retcon/correct this)

[Faranoth-nordrassil]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

the religion died, and the Forsaken weren’t practicing it at all

Huh? When did they say this?
I know it was mostly in the RPG material, but I thought they still took up inspiration from it.

Also, I thought the person who is searching for Natalie in the priest campaign is a Forsaken.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

Does any of this invalidate what I said about why the lore doesn’t support the power fantasy some NE posters clearly expect? Because it doesn’t. And tbh, I don’t hate the NE PC Race. I actually enjoy their lore, their culture, their characters, and their stories. What I’m not fond of is their EXPECTED racial fantasy by a segment of their fanbase. Not all, probably just a vocal minority on these subs. But seriously, what they seem to expect is the most flawless, eternal beings ever to exist. So, outside of BfA (which was truly an inexcusable nightmare created by Blizz) … its no wonder they’ve felt for years Blizz hates and was “beating up the NEs”. Its amazing how much I’ve seen Cata Firelands and Legions Emerald Nightmare used as examples of this apparent Blizz NE hate. Are they just not supposed to struggle against anything ever?

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I found you to be more honest earlier:

@Droité-black-dragonflight

This discussion has absolutely reminded me why I do not like the NEs. Their expected Racial Fantasy is so antithetical to what I enjoy in Fantasy or Fiction. I’ve never been fond of “Born More Special and Just Better” narratives.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Faranoth-nordrassil

Huh? When did they say this?

In the Priest Order Hall questline. “Few remaining followers” of the Cult of Forgotten Shadows, and we need to restore it. Quest giver is Forsaken yes, but it is by no means shown to be the Forsaken Religion anymore.

Regardless, Natalie Seline is a Living Human.

Forgotten Shadows

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

Well, I don’t really enjoy their power fantasy. I prefer underdog stories. Which the NEs absolutely are not.

But you’re right, I should have been more specific. That discussion reminded me why I do not like the expected NE Racial fantasy of some NE players. That expects them to be such a overwhelming and special group of people inherently and intrinsically, they do just kind of invalidate everyone else. They make the rest of them superfluous. And in a world where that expected (and rather baseless) Power Fantasy came to exist, lets just say that “Human Potential” would pale in comparison to “NE Potential”.

[Faranoth-nordrassil]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Regardless, Natalie Seline is a Living Human.

This was really dumb. And they didn’t change it despite the several complaints about it at the time. Then again, the Cult was mainly in RPG material and I don’t remember it making its way into the game until Legion.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

See my response to Zarrín back on post 286.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

Weird? I can’t click on the link. I’ll just scroll up.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

My bad. I fixed the link.

[Shernish-nazjatar]

The main offensive force of the Horde is the legions, clad in fur pants and armed with an ax.
What the hell are technologies? The Legion also had armor and other protective gear. No, gunpowder is cool, all that … But why, if your technologies were ready to rebuff a more serious enemy?
Why develop tactics? The defense will always be the same. What’s new you can think of? However, a couple of fortresses would not hurt. Maybe.

Did the night elves have a renowned fleet? Archers, druids, lunopard riders. Hippogriffs. But for the fleet to be known … no?

So are we going to make a deal for the extinction of the orcs?

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Faranoth-nordrassil

Then again, the Cult was mainly in RPG material and I don’t remember it making its way into the game until Legion.

Yup it was always like “Forsaken have priests, we don’t know why, but they do!”

@Faranoth-nordrassil

This was really dumb.

Yup but:

• Natalie Seline is a Black Woman now
• Forsaken customizations are lack luster
• We are being forced to accept Calia, who uses Human Customization options

Therefore:

• Give Forsaken some Human customization options, Black Woman™ options included
• Make Natalie Seline undead but keep her model, just give her Undead Eyes, so she’s “extra fresh” due to magic void preservation

Boom: Forsaken get a cool lore character that can be used in a “secondary leadership” capacity, Cult of Forgotten Shadows is affirmed Horde-leaning, and we get cool extra-fresh zombie options