Shield bash and pummel share a CD so you still only have one interrupt, but bash is better than pummel as far as duration of interrupt goes. Also don’t have to stance dance and potentially lose rage or take more damage.
The Skram video was interesting. I more or less agree with him on threat tanking involves knowing when and where to use it. Most people probably don’t, but as someone above outlined I found 2H tanking with SS and WW glorious for threat at low levels. Still did some in the 40s but I phased it out eventually.
My biggest issue now is DPS being smart enough to not go ape on mobs I’m trying to LoS pull.
The only way a 2H or dual wield tank is viable is if they hold massive aggro to the point where the rest of the DPS can go all out and just destroy groups and hopefully mitigating the amount you need to heal.
guess It depends on a few things at end game that I’m not familiar with. How touchy is 2h tanking as in if you lag for a sec will it wipe the group? Meaning if its that touchy needing heals galore with crazy up/down health bar yoyo is that really optimal? blip in connection could mean a wipe? Personally I’m jacked into fiber but can’t speak for the masses.
I have healed yoyo health bars in other games like DDO. Talk about a challenge but I felt great with my conquests. underated healers are normal but might do it again someday.
If your DPS aren’t managing their threat then they aren’t competent.
Again, tanks aren’t meant to have to compensate for DPS who go full nuke 0.01 seconds after the pull, never stop, and never use threat management abilities.
Is this some kind of retail vs classic misunderstanding people are having?
Why is it you think that in pre-60 dungeons the damage mitigation isn’t just as horrible, if not worse, for 2H tanks?
Yes. I encourage everyone who thinks the damage mitigation is negligible 2H vs S+S to watch Protectus’s demonstration from upthread:
Because the amount of damage spikes are much higher in end-game dungeons. Go to a non-upper 50s dungeon and have a mage tank a single elite for 10 seconds.
Now go to an upper 50s dungeon and have a mage tank a single elite for 10 seconds.
In most cases, lower level dungeons, that mage will still survive.
In most cases, in an upper level dungeon, that mage is dead if he doesn’t ice block immediately.
Now put a warrior wearing plate armor mitigating physical damage (where applicable). In a lower level dungeon, while the damage taken will unquestionably be higher on a 2h tank, the sheer volume of incoming damage isn’t quite as perilous in lower level dungeons that a healer who is prepared can’t typically manage. (obviously, bad pulls are bad pulls and chaining groups is just spelling a bad time for everyone involved).
2 hand tanking is fine for lower level dungeons; HOWEVER, I still personally feel (as someone who does this) you should communicate with your healer and make sure they are fine with it / can handle it. And then, even still, just use your own observation of how pulls are going after it starts: (1) is your hp dipping to 15% every pull, and you spend every pull expecting to meet the Spirit Healer? (2) is your healer OOM every pull spamming heals to keep you alive?
If the answer is yes to both, then maybe revisit the idea for that dungeon.
More damage = mobs die faster… but even tho a 2h tank does more dmg than sword/board, another factor are the ACTUAL dps – if they aren’t pulling their weight, it further drains your HP / healer mana bc fights drag on longer than they need to.
Yes, my ingenious troll plan to make you post 50 times in my thread. Feel free to stop of your own accord, now that you have uncovered my fiendish plan.
And the gear isn’t green. And the warrior has all of his talents. And level discrepancy isn’t an issue. Damage mitigation 40+ for 2H tanks is terrible. It just is.
I agree with you about communication, and just plain old observation and common sense. And if circumstances permit, that is the tank health bar isn’t a low hp yo-yo, I will heal a 2H tank without complaint. But my experience is that 9/10 times it’s not faster, the tank doesn’t tank better, etc.
I realize this. Even so, not all tanks can do this. When 2H tanks can’t, it’s a problem. Take away the mitigation of a shield, add the extra healing, this exacerbates said problem, and what does one see? A Warrior 2h “tanking.” They blame the concept, perhaps unfairly, but not completely incorrectly. In that set of circumstances, it likely was not the right approach.
That being said, I do not have a problem with wanting to push the envelope (which often is put in a negative light and criticized as a “retail mindset”). In fact, I can see that being a fun goal to pursue.
I can’t argue with your personal experience, but I can see it going both ways really.
When I’ve healed it on my shaman, yes - it can be a little … anxiety-producing. But then again, I’ve always done it with people who knew “oh shoot, this Myrmidon is enraged and chunking my HP, with other adds up - sword/board time” mid-pull and mitigated the impact.
Then again, I’ve also had the ones who just go YOLO! Red=Dead, next pull, another pull! wait, why am i dead? why didn’t you drink? lrn2heal
I guess, when I give my opinions on 2h tanking, I think from both my experience tanking as one (aka knowing when you should swap mid-pull if you ARE doing it) and as a healer who plays whack-a-mole with people’s HP bars.
If its one or two mobs, its okay, but 3+ a shield should be used. The 2h tank is a retail aoe everything by product. Vanilla was about cc and kill order. Most players who joined after TBC, have no concept of kill order and cc. Their dungeon exp is aoe tanking and dps everything. The 2h tanks are by products of all this. I have a three death rule, if i die three times in a group its bye bye.
Good info. I thought Pummel wouldn’t share a CD considering how big of a deal people made about Berserker stance AoE tanking. I always go defensive so I didn’t know.
For me I have just found my rage with a dagger and Fury +rage on hit talents gives me more than enough rage pack to pack to hold aggro on nearly everything unless its something very specific like ZF stairs or the non elite Gnomes in Gnomer. For most everything else threat hasnt been an issue personally.
Its also nice to see a healer going “Dude you take like no damage and hold all threat!” and being able to consistently go through a run with very minimal drinking while chain pulling constantly. As a guy who loves Tanking, nothing makes me happier than knowing im doing the job of Tanking to an extent that surprises many groups.
Precisely. Anyone who has actually sat down to measure the two concepts back to back this is obvious. Its very strange how people come to conclusions based on assumption and then proceed to think they are 100% correct without ever doing any actual testing. Its a bit embarassing tbh.
The idea it increases the speed of the run is also unfounded. I should upload my ZF finds which shows me getting to the first boss consistently 3-4 minutes faster with sword and board consistent pulls, with the healer pitching in for damage, over everyone blowing all their mana and forcing us to drink literally every pull. Its another unfounded idea.
The concept itself seems to be a result of a Retail mindset, but for some it seems to just be pushing the limits just for the sake of pushing the limits with very little actual upside. Which is fine, but people shouldn’t make random pubs suffer under a delusion they are somehow being more effective. They aren’t.
These are the groups that make healing fun and feel rewarding. I also find this sort of tank in less than 20% of my groups. Trust me, your healers always notice. I can’t speak for them but I always appreciate it.
I tank with shield because 2H tanking doesn’t work for paladin at ALL.
It gives me : blocks, more armor mitigation (from 40ish% to 52%). It gives me more threat via blocked damage.
But ot be fair, if the warrior outlevel/out gear instance by a great margin (not 3.6), I don’t see a problem.
I can tell alot of you havent seen 2hnd tanks because the common PRO i see given is “they do it for more threat” this is actually not the case for a decent Warrior, sure you generate more threat than anyother tank can achieve.
but for decent players you 2hnd tank because your going to do 50%+ of the groups dmg, that is the actual reason why you do it to fully exploit the broken class balance of Warriors in Vanilla.
clearly most players don’t understand this and clearly most are unable to do it effectively, so if you didnt enter classic with the mindset “lets really mess around with these broken mechanics” then dont bother trying this.
So … you sign up as a subpar tank, knowing the process to form a dungeon can at times take a fair amount of times for people that actually play their role… and as you realice you simply cant do this, since there is yes to both questions, you simple say, sorry guys, i wasted all that forming up time, travel time… just couse you couldent sign up as the proper tank role…
Yea, i would never go to a dungeon with you again…
Edit, its just a shiite excuse couse you are selfish and want to que as tank, despite your dps !..
While this is true, and 2H can do quite a bit of damage. Its more of a question on whether its actually needed and ignores the concept of finite mana. You may indeed clear packs fast, but packs fall over as it is. Im not sure your damage is actually needed unless the DPS are failing.
On average i’ve also personally noticed from a healing and tanking perspective (although my healer isn’t 60 yet) that drinking between every pull, and sometimes the healer needing to drink twice because he had to heal during the pull and after since people drink often, but rarely eat food to refill their hp, overall forms a much slower run. Like sometimes my runs take twice as long because of drinking as inefficient mana useage is being forced onto healers/DPS(who aoe for even 2 mobs) to keep you and the DPS up.
Consistently moving from pack to pack overall consistently makes a pub group move faster because not everyone is efficient enough with mana useage to actual make the 2H concept worth it. Its not a damage problem, its an efficiency problem.
I agree with OP. Some of you are talking like the other 4+ people in a dungeon group play perfectly while it’s up to the healer to make up for bad play. And if the healer doesn’t, then the healer is the bad player. But the truth is, if the dps players would just give the sword and board tank a few seconds (you can’t wait just 3 or 4 seconds??) to get the aggro set, then the healer mostly just has to heal the tank. Then there is WAY less drinking needed, and therefore way less downtime in the dungeon. Faster dungeon crawling. Less stress. Less wipes. But the thing is, too many dps players are in panic mode about the damage meters and/or have A.D.D… Same with 2h tanks. I’m not talking about raiding situations, just dungeons. When I’m healing, I love me some shield warriors or bear tanks.
It’s not about ‘managing their threat’. It’s about doing the instance quickly and efficiently. If I’m with some boomer prot tank and have to constantly hold back, kill speed is way, way down. I farmed all of my pre-bis with the same people and dungeon clear times were MUCH faster when the tank was dw fury prot. After he respecced to it from full prot, he never went back because it was so much better. He wasn’t even wearing much def either. The healer never had any issues and we pretty much always chain pulled from start to finish.
I literally looked at my armor value when DWing, recorded that, and then looked at my armor value when using a shield, and recorded that. Did some middle school math and came out to that 18% DR. I would hope that you don’t stray away from using math in your response…
You were spamming Shield Block while using the shield. Shield Block is an enormous amount of DR against a small number of weak mobs, which is exactly what you were fighting. You won’t be doing that in instances. Fight more mobs and Shield Block won’t be anywhere near as good. Fight harder hitting mobs and Shield Block won’t be anywhere near as good. The latter also applies to the passive block chance that you have on your character; it’s really not appropriate to measure your effectiveness at tanking by fighting level 48 mobs.
You were also in Defensive Stance for the shield part of the video, and in Berserker Stance for the 2H part of the video.
Please try and eliminate all other variables before claiming that 2H is so much worse than a shield.
Math.
I’m essentially topping DPS meters more or less while DW tanking instances in Defensive Stance. Add on the drastic threat-per-damage difference between a DPS player and a Defensive Stance-DPS Warrior and it’s extremely hard to pull aggro off of the Warrior.
You generate a bunch of extra rage from having multiple mobs whack on you which can be used for more DPS. I really only have people pull off of me where there are several (>5 or 6) mobs around, and that’s purely because the target caps on abilities makes it really hard to manage that stuff.