Now that Razorice has other ways to be applied, I don’t see a reason to have MotFW to be a talent on the tree anymore. It should just be moved to baseline, and if anything will still not be played as there are too many 2-point nodes on the tree. The reason I say they correlate is because DW having Razorice+FC was the reason for MotFW to be a talent to balance them out. Now that DW can use Hysteria and FC + Razorice; they have solidified themselves as the best and only way to play Breath builds, which is perfectly fine. However DW will be strong in obliteration builds as well, even moreso than 2H and without the use of a talent point. 2H players being gated and punished for a talent point to play Obliteration with a weapon type doesn’t make sense and should just be dropped and the MotFW talent just become baseline.
Agreed, MotFW has to be baseline. Silly not to be.
Happy they took a bunch of steps to make 2h more competitive. Looking forward to what the numbers look like once you beta testers can mess around with the new build.
I’m starting to think… much like SMF is in Fury tree, it is likely that MotFW would remain in the Frost DK tree.
Not that I think it should remain in there as I also wish both are baseline.
There is a difference in SMF vs 2H Frost tho. One is just 5% dmg, the other is an overall playstyle decision. SMF has additional talents to make it work better, while MotFW is our only playstyle choice node. Monks and Feral do not get this type of problem when using dw vs 2h options. Because they have the same playstyle. SMF was also said by blizzard to be balanced to be similar numbers as Titans Grip. We do not see that type of bluepost for 2h vs DW Frost.
that’s a solid point.
Fair, it’s just a guess though. 
I want to see 2h at the very least much higher up the tree. Not that is a huge deal because it’s a short term problem, but you won’t be able to run 2h oblit when prepatch hits since it’s currently in the last talent tier so you will be one point short.
I think making a couple of the 2 point nodes into 1 pointers would help too.
Would a choice node work in allowing the player DW or 2H? Maybe have it drop solely below Pillar of Frost, and adjust node count to make up for it?
2h is not a playstyle. Its not even really a damage profile and when you look at DW and 2h Obliteration builds Obliterate makes up about equal damage between the 2. If DW can play just like 2h, and perform better, then its not playstyle choice. Its like saying 2h is a playstyle choice in wrath, its not.
I think its pretty lazy that people think all issues can be fixed just through trying to equalize Runeforges. With Icecap and Obliteration being able to be picked up together, DW is going to have much more time in Obliteration windows with how DW actually works with Icecap.
If you dont address the mechanics you arent accomplishing anything and I dont want my playstyle to be ruined because another weapon set cant be up to par.
For early levelling purposes only - can all skills be used without might of the frozen wastes? I have a lvl 31 DK alt that I use for working on loremaster in Chromie time. I want to continue to use a 2h on him. If that’s not high enough for might of the frozen wastes, can I still use all frost DK skills with a 2h weapon? I don’t care about optimization while levelling, I just want to use a 2h weapon as frost at any level. Using a 2h, as frost, at any level is very important to me.
MotFW doesnt actually carry the passive that allows or prevents from using a 2h weapon as far as I can tell. Even MotFW rank 1 doesnt say that you can use a 2h weapon, Rank 2 which comes at level 24 just gives the beneficial passives for wielding a 2h. Should be able to use a 2h regardless.
If MotFW does give you the ability, its not a part of the tooltip.
Thank you. It is good to hear that I can keep using a 2h on my lower lvl DKs regardless of whether they are high enough for MotFW.
No. Putting MoTFW beneath Pillar as a connection to Icecap is fine, but DW and all it’s passives should stay baseline.
If they made it a connection to icecap it would have such a low value that no one would go 2h. Why would anyone with a 2h play Icecap when DW plays into its design MUCH better.
Well there would be no reason to go 2h for this reason. Outside of PoF windows DW is going to lower the CD MUCH more than 2h because of the extra weapon, and even in the PoF window if Obliteration is taken frost strike will have 2 chances to crit to lower the CD a little more within that window.
MotFW is where it should be in the tree. Since MotFW limits what you want to do with a 2h anyways, it makes sense that it would be over by KM rank 2, Murderous Efficiency and all of that. It really wouldnt make any sense being positioned anywhere else.
I think they should also probably bring back Cinderglacier. Its proccing a LOT more frequent than what I remember. With all the Frost damage, and with all the ways to apply razorice, and with all the resource gain, RI and Hysteria seem to lose quite a lot of power. Why have either of the Runeforges when they arent really needed?
I would like this a lot.
Yes, there is no reason to have to spend a point to play 2H FDK. Just give it baseline Blizz!
The idea is to get MoTFW below the 8th gate and that’s either a spot below Icecap or above it.
Updated MoTFW also guarantees a KM proc every auto crit and that plays into Icecap well, debately better than DW.
iirc thats basically how it works now as well and dw still has close to double the km procs compared to 2h because dw autos more often.
That isn’t. It’s a 70% chance then 100% on live vs. DWs 30/70/100.
Also, as an example, looking at some Mythic Shriekwing logs (1 DW Obliteration [It’s hard to find DW Obliteration logs], 3 for 2h), DW had 42 procs over 4mins~ and 2h averaged 37 (42, 30, and 39). That’s 15%~ more procs currently, with the average being an extra proc ever 48 seconds, hardly enough to say Icecap favors DW with the MoTFW buffs.
You need a lot of crit for that. Right now its what… 70% and 100% when you crit. While it might be better than it is right now, trying to make up for missing another weapon is going to need more than that. Cold-Blooded Rage is still there im assuming and you get more out of that from DW than 2h, Icecap you have both hits of Obliterate and both from Frost Strike as well to crit and lower the cd of it.
There are also less people raiding right now so trying to find logs in fated raids is probably going to be harder. But when you look at Sepul 9.2. where its still hard to find 2h logs, I think 2h was like 40% behind in terms of KM procs, and the increased KM proc rate was making the damage output of Obliterate roughly equal between the 2 weapons.
I think people are just playing Wrath Classic currently. Why would people play raids again that they already seen and not that many people out of the entire playerbase actually did. Wrath Classic Pre-patch has so many people on it right now there are wait times and even on my server which isnt full, have a lot of people on it.
We can always hop on the ptr check to see how well this new updated MotFW is actually doing. It doesnt take much for me to tell if there is a noticeable difference. Its going to feel worse than on Wrath classic though because of the slow attack speed on live. I dont even have unholy presence and Frost attacks like a madman on speed. Even with a 2h it can get as low as a 2 second swing timer (with unholy presence) and I can feel a difference between the proc rates.
On Holondrus, im seeing a DW Obliteration log that got 121 KM procs on Holondrus, 2h had 81. Its not double, but its a significant amount higher. DW has around 50% more KM procs than 2h. This is with a pretty high crit% with the 2pc and the ability to get more secondary stats since its the end of the expansion.