So, if that is how KM actually works, couldnt Bliz just add a tunning fork passive which slightly increases one’s haste rating and crit chance while using a 2handed weapon to try and get the total number of KM procs between DW and 2H balanced?
Maybe give 2h the Icy Talons as a baseline passive.
I mean, that tuning fork wouldn’t be “slight”. DW gets 277% as many KM procs as a 2h at the same crit and haste level. You’d need some serious crit and haste bonuses to make up that difference (though that wouldn’t end up with the same number of KM procs anyway, since crit and haste both increase overall damage as well).
Still, I already annotated out what they could do for it:
Still retains a similar mechanism as the DW version, and thus still scales with haste and crit properly. The 2h version would be burstier, of course, since you’re getting 2 stacks per proc and have a higher chance per crit to get the proc, but have a much longer average time between procs. The average KM stacks per minute would be the same, however, and differences in how bursty the proc is feel like valid gameplay differentiation between the two.
Fair enough. That would also allow for the more bursty play-style of 2h as compared to a more consistent DPS style of DW - A reality many people want anyway.
I feel like a lot of the “stacking ideas” only account for downtime situations, taking something like Obliteration into account, you run into what could be a severe resource problem, constantly trying to balance between your KM’s, Rimes, and not capping on RP. Considering we seemingly have an idea of how KM procs work, not off the individual crits but the chance of procing off the crit itself and the protections in place, couldn’t you possibly introduce a system where are 2h auto’s always crit? That why you could in essence eliminate one of the rolls from the equation, and then from there apply buffs to other areas? Considering even with this kind of buff in place 2h might be behind, maybe allow 2h some way to increase it’s crit multiplier with it’s crit stat, to add a unique stat build path for 2h in comparison to DW, giving people the beffer 2h style while not needing to completely redesign the class? A lot of my suggestions would be based on whether the first part is a viable buff suggestion so to the amazing theroycrafters here I’d love to hear feedback.
Simply for the sake of completeness, I ran a Monte-Carlo simulation to see what the graphs would look like if KM behaved like RPPM. I’m using 1 auto per second, 20% crit value and 5 rppm. The rppm formula used is
proc chance = max( 1.0, 1 + ( ( time since last proc / ( 60 / rppm ) - 1.5 ) * 3.0 ) ) * rppm * ( min( time since last attempt, 3.5 ) / 60 )
1 million auto attacks give the following graphs:
Especially the graph with time since last proc attempt doesn’t look at all similar to the real data.
If 2h AAs always crit, then crit becomes extremely devalued for them. If 2h AA simply always proc on a crit, 2h is still ~27% behind DW in proc rate. DW gets a proc on ~50% of AA crits, but 2h crits only 36% as often as DW, at the same crit and haste level.
As for Obliteration, I intended the 2-stack thing to only apply to procs from AA crits. Obliteration would continue to grant only a single KM stack per Frost Strike/Howling Blast, because those are not metered by attack speed and thus are the same for DW and 2h.
Why is your RPPM equation using 3.5s as the maximum time since last proc attempt? Last I checked, that cap is 10s, not 3.5s.
This is what simulationcraft is using atm.
Ooof. So SimC is utilizing a completely wrong mechanism for this? Have you reported this on the DK discord? Or raised an issue on the SimC github? If not, I can do so.
Don’t worry about, I’ll make sure it’s implemented if simc people deem it significant enough.
May or may not be at this point, since we have no idea how or whether it is going to change in SL. But still, I have that needling part of me that wants to see things like this corrected.
Wait, since when did they put runic power back into Rime? That was removed long ago.
Obliterates, and frost strikes, have half crits as well, are you including that too? Each weapon swing when you use obliterate has its own roll to see if it’s a crit. KM just allows it so that both rolls are 100% instead of your crit rating applied to each weapon separately. So if you have 20% crit your main hand has that chance and your offhand has that chance, unless there is something wonky going on with that too.
There are still 4 outcomes that can happen with DW obliterates, no crit at all, full crit, main hand crit or off hand crit.
I swear it generates runic, but I may be wrong. I definitely do not play DK heavily in BfA, especially Frost (because I hate Breath).
Edit: just tested it, yep, Rime does not generate Runic. Well, that’s a shame, but I guess I understand it.
Ya, but the mathematical effect of that is the same. It shows a smoother curve because of the individual hands, but there’s no mathematical difference in damage between the hands independently critting and jointly critting.
The point I was making is that KM proccing off AAs lets it prevent devaluing crit. If anything, it amplifies the strength of crit, because you get the native increase to Obliterate crit rate and a higher rate of KM procs.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure it still doesn’t give runic power. I remember making sure this expansion. It was another reason why the spec felt like it kept getting slower and slower which it was.
Here is a question, how many of those km procs, would obliterate crit on its own? Basically, how many natural crits are being overwritten by KM since it’s based on crit?
Its not like the proc doesn’t have value, it has other purposes like muderous efficiency and Frostscythe, and in SL it will have even more value with the frost damage it provides. But the more crit you get, the less the crit portion of the proc should matter since obliterate should naturally crit on its own.
Yes, KM to some extent can be seen as consuming Obliterates that would have crit anyway, equal to your critical strike chance. But since your proc rate goes up with crit, as well as your effective Obliterate critical strike rate, it’s worth it. It keeps the stat good. In fact, crit is Frost’s best stat because of that.
Based on how KM seems to work, I would say Frosts best stats would be 1. Crit 2. Haste 3. Mastery
Well back on topic, 2h would need, according to some people on the alpha, 37% more crit over what DW has to get the same amount of procs.
Frost, in almost every place you look, just works better with DW. I wouldn’t be surprised is Blizzard does absolutely nothing for 2h? Warlocks have basically stopped giving feedback because there is no other feedback to give than what has been already stated. I mean nothing in 15 days on the alpha forums. I don’t really see what feedback frost has left to give either. Or the dk in general that hasn’t already been stated.
Thanks you two for putting all that time into the math behind KM. That was enjoyable to read along as it unfolded.
Ya, it’s surprising and a bit disheartening to see just how many classes are looking at their changes, looking at Blizzard’s responses (or more often, complete silence), and just kinda giving up hope.
There is some feedback on outbreak which isn’t even a big deal in the first place, frost has 2h issues which should have been obvious, and well I haven’t liked blood in a long time so I pay no real attention to it. And people thinking the night fae ability has no frost interaction because it doesn’t make an ability cleave but missing the str buff. Is this are the issues people have with it then it should be a stable class going into Shadowlands.