Dont come in here trolling and talking trash.
Oh, and since I havent presented anything and dont know what im talking about even though I got my information from blue posts talking about how RPPM works, as well as someone who shown math and such. Ill show the formula for RPPM. And I have read the post on this a good 10 times now.
proc chance = unlucky_streak prevention * (rppm / 60.0) * MIN(time_since_last_proc_attempt, 10.0)
unlucky_streak_prevention = MAX(1.0, 1.0 + 3.0 * (time_since_last_proc * rppm / 60 - 1.5))
ON ENTERING RAID BOSS COMBAT:
SET time_since_last_proc = 0.0
SET time_since_last_attempt = 0.0
A post from a Dev explained how Real PPM was to function. RPPM was intended to be a new method of handling procs on trinkets and enchants.
They said that certain enchants would have certain RPPM values. Then their third point was “Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency on average.”
They also go on to say “DW and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the freguency of procs that you get.”
“This Real PPM is increased by your haste %.”
“Simple as that. Whether you’re an Affliction warlock dealing very frequent DoT ticks and Malefic Grasp ticks, or a Holy Paladin casting Purely Holy Light, or a Combat Rogue quickly attacking and using specials, or an Enhancement Shaman attacking with slow melee attacks and spells, or a Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you’dd get 2Haste Windsong procs or 10Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute.”
That is not what we see at all with what is happening in Alpha. They arent even remotely close. It acts like a PPM system that is only triggered on auto crits. The more chances you have increases the number of procs you are able to get. Which was also explained by the guy that provided the RPPM formula.
Well, I stand corrected. Went out and got a bunch of data, and compiled it into a nice neat little spreadsheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J-fvqfF6yqaHQL-07YSMTzxoVigvMJf-Xu3AGsSpEVw/edit?usp=sharing
It is not in fact RPPM. It also does not appear to be PPM either, as far as I can tell, though we’d require data using a 2-hander to tell for sure. The data suggests that it’s just straight up a 50% chance per AA crit to proc. If that were PPM, it would be 11.5 PPM, which seems a very odd value, especially given how close to the rounded 50% rate it is. If using a 2-hander gives a proc rate of closer to 70% (3.6/2.6 * 0.5 = 0.6923), then we can say it’s PPM, but I suspect it’s simply a flat percentage.
Either way, there’s absolutely zero chance 2h can ever compete with that proc rate with it still triggering off of crits. So basically, they need to change how it works (like restoring the old RPPM on all AA hits, perhaps scaled by crit chance as well), or find some other way to prop up 2h, because even if 2h had a 100% chance on AA crit, they’d still be getting ~28% fewer KM procs per minute than DW at any given crit level.
Also went back to look at the time data to see why it disagrees with this, and I think I see the issue:
My bold. This is incorrect. RPPM operates off of the time since last proc attempt, not time since last proc (except for the bad luck protection component). To properly compute the time-sensitivity, you’d need to look at each AA crit, how long it had been since the last AA crit (not KM proc), and then compute the probability of an AA crit generating a KM proc relative to the time since the last AA crit. I suspect that data will be substantially less clear.
Take my advice from other threads. Just report them. They’re being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. We’ve got someone who does WQs with absolutely zero progression or end-game content under their belt, arguing with a prominent community theorycrafter and getting snarky when they try to point out why they’re wrong.
Kelliste has a habit of posting all of this gish-ga-bobble, claiming they’ve done “this or that” with research and not posting any.
Edit: Few posts up, they’re getting flustered and whining about people “talking trash”. Bro, Biceps writes the Unholy and I think Frost guides on WoWhead, and is a theorycrafter for the class. You’re just a forum nobody who talks about evidence, posts all of this nonsensical math, and then gets mad when no one believes you or cares what you say.
You can disguise your triteness however you please, but let’s stop pretending that anything you are saying is nothing more than you padding your post count and doing the same thing you’re accusing others of doing.
3 Likes
Not sure if they’re worried about people weapon swapping during combat to abuse whatever 2H vs DW adjustments they may make. DW Frost is already wondering about keeping 2 sets of weapons, switching in for the new Hysteria Runeforge for Breath windows, which I hope would be corrected because grinding 4 high ilvl, well-itemized weapons would be annoying.
I remember 2H and DW frost having different damage profiles and priorities. Maybe 2H could synergize with different talents and be the non-Breath build that some have been looking for. Maybe KM could give 2 charges if using a 2H and give a talent that increases KM proc chance with 2H?
3 Likes
Can you switch weapons in a raid-dungeon. Last I had heard we could not.
I think it’s only non-weapons you can’t switch. I don’t usually go into a dungeon or raid and forget the right weapons tho.
Me either but I do remember trying to go from one weapon to another for the Shadowmourne quest in icc and it would not let me switch while in combat
It had locked my char in its armor and weapons. I ended up having to hearth out to fix the issue.
Bake icy citadel into pillar and make icecap or obliteration the go to for 2H.
Same with festermight for unholy.
This. Icy Citadel is so crucial to current Frost losing it will feel like such dog. This isn’t even counting the fact Breathe is getting nothing but indirect buffs. I’d rather have Festermight do something with our diseases for UH. Instead of a strength buff, I always thought faster tick rate on VP would be really cool and engaging.
2h’s are hopefully gonna be addressed soon. According to the Preach interview, Death Knight’s are getting their turn in Torghast next build, hopefully along with that we at least hear something of a change.
1 Like
Look at the post you just wrote about me. Its a post complaining and trashing another player yet you want to report me? For what? No forum rules are broken, its just you guys dont like the name next to the poster. Boo hoo, no one cares, just keep talking your trash and getting silenced and banned.
And at least I interact with people, I post math and so on, what do you do? Complain about people on the forums? What are you contributing? Creating these conspiracy theories that I just care about post count?
Whats the point of your post exactly? Oh and this forum nobody was right despite you kicking and screaming. Oh what did I say that people read as someone who was anti-2h? Hmmm what was it? Maybe that if they just lifted weapon restrictions the very issues would still plague 2h as it has for 11 years. And what did people say to that? Oh no its been normalized and is based on RPPM and low and behold its probably the worst is has ever been. Being able to even roll to see if you get a KM is tucked away behind yet another roll. The frost spec, even before now, was a DW focused spec. The mechanics just work better with it.
Oh, and this isnt my only Death Knight by the way, this is actually my second one.
I think the calculation from alpha and I got it from Finalboss? With Bay… or however you spell it. That 2h would need 37% more crit over the value that DW has to equal out the amount of procs between weapons.
This disparity is probably the biggest that there has ever been between the 2 proc rates for KM. A little under 2 per minute for 2h, which im guessing whatever the premade character stats are, and just over 7 per minute for DW.
And that is only 1 aspect of what is going on. Runeforges and talents being another, and then there is a possibility with tier sets and legendaries, even Soulbinds. There is so much more that can prop up DW even more that we might just not know about unless there has been some datamining that has happened.
Dude, you literally are full of it. You keep repeating this nonsense in every thread. Someone literally posted evidence of logs that showed the split between 2h and dw in WoD (which you kept talking about in these very same threads) and 2h was still more represented in top logs than dw, EVEN IN HFC. You keep repeating this “DW was always better” nonsense, and it’s just that: nonsense.
Is this the DK forum equivalent of “I have Gladiator on my other account”?
5 Likes
What post are you referring to? The only time I can remember 2h being ahead was early WoD, not late. No post directly linking logs have been made. And looking at all guides available at the time say the same thing “DW is better but if you have a stronger 2h, go for that”. That’s primarily been the attitude since MoP for what I can see and or find.
Even in Wrath, one of Frost’s first talent options was “Nerves of Cold Steel” a talent that specifically boosted hit chance with 1h’s and Offhand damage. Frost was designed for 2h, but at this junction, I’d prefer to have 2h be a nice little subclass. Get it as close as you can and if I really want to push myself, I can atleast switch to Unholy and use the same weapon. Sure Obliterate 2h’s damage increases, maybe higher crit damage, GA being buffed for it would only be “band aids” but they’d be better than now. I’d like that instead of what Alpha has now.
1 Like
Hopefully, some answers may come with the next Alpha release. According to Preach’s recent interview, the only classes excluded from Torghast will be Rogue and Paladin, meaning DK’s get there time to shine. With looking at the Anima we’ll have, we’ll hopefully be able to see what they like about Frost and where there heads are at on some level. Maybe even some balancing changes.
1 Like
Do you have the RPPM blue post? The main reason I did the investigation was to debunk the PPM hypothesis. There are indications that they have some custom stuff with KM. In 8.2 they changed something to help the proc rate at low amounts of crit. This might’ve been them going from RPPM to some new system specifically for KM.
“Procs per minute changed from 4.5 to None”
Then find this post of logs. One, it was just showing the number of parses each weapon had and didn’t actually show logs, and in hellfire 2h was basically not even represented with them listing fights that was 10-0 in favor of DW.
I have also never said DW was always ahead, which is just a lie. Don’t want me to complain about people lying, then don’t lie.
Which that was talked about in another thread talking about it being ppm, and the removal of confusing language and that it was still functioning like it did. That hypothesis was backed up by people just not knowing how ppm works, or what it even is in that same thread.
It also doesn’t say real procs per minute, but instead procs per minute. Other things that have been based on the RPPM system have stated the value and then what kind of proc even from Blizzard. Elemental force 10RPPM as one example.
The RPPM system, even if I am wrong and KM is RPPM, it is not a good system for KM. That’s the very reason why I asked if either was getting the RPPM value that the system should be trying to get. Faster attacks have a much lower chance to proc than slow attacks, yet we are seeing the direct opposite of what should be happening, given that you just swap out the weapon. I’m sure the person who tested it didn’t go out and farm other sets of gear to have false results.
They probably won’t even go back to it proccing from regular autos due to double procs. The split in the spec in WoD had procs happening right before ability usage which to many felt bad. If you were 2h and about to dump some RP with frost strike it would proc in such a way you couldn’t react to it at all.
Here’s a more detailed view of how I got the data I displayed.
This is the data used.
Here’s the code I used.
Please let me know if you have any questions.