2H Obliterate - complete the dream Blizz!

Classes Death Knight
365

Look, ppm is really not that hard. You have the ppm, it’s been 5 for a long time, some people have come up with a ppm of 4.5. So, with the formula for proc chance it’s 3 things. Ppm number, 60 seconds, base weapon speed so it’s based off of 1h or 2h. A ppm of 5 for one hand is the low 20% range, 21-22%, 2h is 29.99%. Then you have the trigger for the ability, so it’s not checking it’s it s an auto attack to roll either yes on a km proc or no, it’s looking for an auto attack crit to be able to roll. This % can’t change unless the formula is chanced and procs increase based on the number of chances that you have. With it just based off of auto attacks DW was 21% every 1.3 seconds due to both weapons proccing it, and 2h was 30% chance every 3.6 seconds. Before haste clearly.

Not the trigger for a roll has changed. The ability still works exactly as a ppm system is explained it’s just that it doesn’t roll until there is a crit. The more crit you have the more autos are able to crit which can then roll to see if it is a km proc. Haste then works with crit, increasing auto attack output per minute which increases the amount of autos that can crit, and therefore proc km.

RPPM does track procs. It starts a timer, it checks how long it has been since the last proc and so on. It tries to get you that number of procs per minute and why it’s called real procs per minute. RPPM of 1 gives 1 a minute, RPPM of 3 gives you 3 per minute. It doesn’t matter what you do, if you attack 3 times per minute or 500 times a minute, it gets you that number, everything is out of the players hands unless you just aren’t doing anything at all and you are standing around.

So, if KM had an RPPM of 4.5, and it does track your procs and has a built in protection, then why is 2h so far behind with almost identical stats? Nothing should matter, it has a real proc of 4.5 a minute yet 2h sees 2 and DW sees almost 8 with whatever stats the guy who tested it had.

I really do not understand where people are getting this idea that it’s RPPM.

366

Well, 5 PPM on a 2.6 speed weapon is 21.667%. Dual-wielding a pair, with say 20% crit chance, is on average an AA crit every 1.3 / 0.2 = 6.5s. At 21.667% proc chance, that’s an average proc interval of 30.0s. So you’re getting 2 procs per minute, by your math. So much for 5 PPM, or your claimed 7-8 procs per minute from the alpha.

See why this doesn’t work? PPM assumes every single auto-attack can proc, but that’s not the case when it only procs off of critical auto-attacks. It also clearly does not jive with the 50-60% proc rate I saw in my test earlier. So clearly your assumption about it is very wrong.

No, it checks the time since the last proc attempt, not the last proc. There is some bad luck protection built in based on the time since the last proc, but it doesn’t apply to all RPPM effects, and it doesn’t even kick in until you’ve gone 150% of the average interval between procs without having one.

No. No it doesn’t. Nothing in the system is “trying to get you that number of procs per minute”. The only thing RPPM does is scale the proc chance per hit based on how long it has been since the last proc chance occurred (and that’s proc chance, not proc). Seriously, even the article you referenced spells this out clearly.

I mean, things that proc off auto-attacks are already passive anyway, unless you’re literally not attacking. And anyway, the “time since last proc attempt” caps at 10 seconds, so if you spend longer than that not triggering proc attempts, you’re straight up losing procs. So ya, what you do does matter.

RPPM DOES NOT TRACK YOUR PROCS!

The system does not sit there and say “oh, hey, Kelliste has only gotten 2 procs in the last 50 seconds, time to give her 2.5 more in the next 10s so she gets 4.5 per minute”. The only accounting for the time of the previous proc is the bad luck protection element, and I’m about 98% sure that doesn’t apply to KM (if it did, failing to get an AA crit for ~22s would guarantee the next AA crit triggers one, and testing shows that isn’t the case).

I’ve yet to see this testing you keep citing. However, note that 2h simply does not crit often enough to see the full procs. At 20% crit chance, a 3.6s weapon is only going to crit an average of 3.33 times per minute, or every ~18 seconds on average. Since the RPPM time-since-last-attempt caps at 10s, which is less than the 13.3s average interval, no swing will have a 100% proc chance even if those AA crits are >10s apart. So ya, seeing only ~2 procs per minute is about what we’d expect from a 2-hander.

As for the DW, your claim was 85 procs in 12 minutes, which is 7.083 procs per minute, not 8. 7.083 would be consistent with ~20% crit and 30% haste, or vice versa, if the RPPM scales with crit. I’d also still like to see your source for these claims.

I dunno, maybe the actual spell data from the game client?! And the fact that KM has always been RPPM, even before it triggered off of AA crits.

4 Likes
367

I can tell you that one, a player did testing in alpha on a target dummy and thats what they reported had happened. That dw had 85 or something like where 2h only had like 12-30 procs.

368

12-30 is a pretty large range. That’s a range of 1.0 to 2.5 proc per minute, assuming they were both precisely 12 minutes in length.

Still, as I said, I would expect 2h to have massively lower. In fact, that’s been my point this entire time, having KM as both RPPM and triggering off AA crits simply doesn’t work with the attack speed of a 2hander. They simply cannot crit often enough to reliably avoid hitting the 10s proc attempt interval cap, meaning their observed proc rate will always be massively below what it should be.

And frankly, they could easily fix that simply by making it RPPM on all auto-attacks. Bam, done, DW and 2h will now see similar proc rates.

1 Like
369

Sorry to give such a large range for 2h I do not remember the orignal number given. I do know She gave the numbers while pointing out why dw is better and will always be better type post.

1 Like
370

But this is also when alpha first came out and players were at a lvl cap that wasnt the max level.

1 Like
371

She’s wrong as has been shown repeatedly on the forums, because they don’t actually test any of the things they talk about on the forums in game, and literally just regurgitate stuff they read off of websites.

1 Like
372

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-death-knight-class-changes/490709/10?u=lach%C3%A1ncla-tichondrius

373

So I went out on a quest to properly test the PPM vs RPPM. My hypothesis is that if it’s RPPM, the proc rate should scale with time since last proc. If it’s PPM, the time since last proc shouldn’t matter at all. I looked at 10 logs from Shad’har. Considering only critical strike autos, I looked at time since last KM proc and then took the average proc rate aggregated for each second. The earlier scatter point contain many data data points whereas 7+ is roughly 4 or so. I’ve omitted the data where I only had a single event for each second. (9-15 seconds).

There’s a significant correlation between time since last proc and the proc rate (p-value is 0.013). I think this proves that it isn’t a simple PPM.

5 Likes
374

talk about a wall of text for something simple. For one these percentages can have lucky and unlucky streaks. Like crusader for example, you can get 2, 3, or more just depending on how it rolls.

It really isn’t this complicated. It’s a chance on a chance. If you have say 20% crit, the game does a roll, and if that roll is within a certain numerical value then it’s a crit. It then can roll if that crit will produce a KM proc. The more chances you have per minute increases how many you get.

And if you want to get technical 2h isn’t even 2 procs per minute on alpha. I round just to make it easy for people to understand.

Ppm does not assume it will proc, it rolls to see if it will. Ppm does not have to be off of just autos, a trigger can be applied and it will only roll that percentage if that trigger is met, or in this case an auto crit.

That’s the thing about the ppm system, you can get good or bad rolls. 20% crit doesn’t mean that only 20 out of 100 attacks will crit. It’s a roll based system.

RPPM checks the last attempt and the last proc, if it didn’t know when your last proc was the built in protection wouldn’t work right.

375

Yea we all know what she is all about. Is why i have her on ignore so i do not have to see the prattle. That being said I will either be maining a paladin or dk this coming xpac. And while I have played with unholy I just love 2h frost hate the dw part. My dk has been Frost for 90% of its life.

While I feel blood had awesome mechanics that make it a very good tank there are some things that kinda have me shying away from Blood. I contiune to see the updates the new patch notes.

And well I am worried about frost in general and more specifically 2h frost.

3 Likes
376

Even though I test things in game and tell others to do so as well. I don’t know why you guys have this fascination of bashing other players like you do.

377

Yet you still talk about me, kind of strange isn’t it. So why exactly are you talking about me if you want to ignore me?

378

You mean proc chance? The rate of procs shouldn’t change in an RPPM system. Like what has been said in the RPPM explanation an RPPM of 1 is 1 proc per minute.

379

It translates into proc chance yes. When testing with data you infer the proc probability from the proc rate in the data. With RPPM, the proc chance will depend on time since last proc, like the data here shows.

380

What about the last proc attempt, last proc… unlucky streak prevention?

Or is it ppm like what was being talked about about a year ago and it having a ppm of 4.5. Or from the 8.2 PTR build 30168, said the text was being removed that stated 4.5 procs per minute and it was speculated to be removed because it was confusing people.

If everyone else knew it was PPM in 8.2, why are people now thinking it’s RPPM? It’s not a good system for that type of proc anyways because you aren’t getting a real ppm of 4.5. It’s just not happening.

381

I’m not sure what you’re saying. I’ve never thought it was PPM. The data I posted clearly shows that it’s not PPM, simple as that.

382

No, it doesn’t. I mean this is coming for the person who didn’t even know Glacial Advance cd is reduced by haste.

383

You can clearly see that the proc chance depends on time since last proc. How are you saying that isn’t the case?

384

Is 2h getting 4.5 procs per minute?