Well again I have said I am no programmer. Infact I had one class of it and that was it. But we were taught about if than statements and true false statements. She had said that the km equasion could not be split up or altered to increase the procs 2h get that they would have to redo all the math they have in it. But when asked provided no proof.
Now to me looking at the simplest way to normalize KM procs would be to increase the chance rate of 2h km procs using one of those two statements or both. The point is it can be done but again having someone shout it down that it cant be done is happening. Being someone that is actuly trying to have a conversation.
I applaud this and want to contiune by trying to further this by asking. if they increased the KM proc chances(even though oblit will be doing frost damage with km procs). And (I know I have said this so many times I feel like a broken record) if they put the RI into mastery that way mastery increases the frost damage as it does now and (puts a stacking buff on us that cant be dispelled or stolen that says increases frost damage done to target by 3%) I know this changes RI but it makes it so the debuff isn’t on a target that dies and can be carried over so we do not have to build it up again. Then you allow 2h frost to stack 2 runes on our 2h weapon. This way we can experiment with the new runes. We keep the same amount of runes as dw and we aren’t forced into RI.
This would give us more choices. Now what I am wondering is about Obliterates damage with a 2h weapon when km procs. As it will be frost damage. Compaired to it being physical damage. With it scaling off of 2h weapons what will the damage look like.
With increasing the crit chance you slightly increase the chance to be able to roll. Of corse if you have 5% crit chance it’s not even remotely going to do anything. You want as many chances as possible. Say they changed it back to auto attacks and not auto crits. 2h has a chance with no haste every 3.6 seconds while DW has it every 1.3 seconds due to the offhand. Now that crit is in the equation it just makes this gap even more noticeable. Even if you did increase the crit chance on a low attack speed weapon it wouldn’t do much because the speed still isn’t there.
If they are different then 2h obliterate is worse than DW 80% is not 120% which is what 60+60 is. You start getting into so many other issues, just bring back Cata MotFW if you don’t want to have the gap as big. It’s an easier solution than trying to split the weapons yet again.
And I answered your question. Unbalanced is unbalanced. If it’s always going to be unbalanced as you put it, then changing what is better is still unbalanced. If it doesn’t change it’s still unbalanced. It’s no worse, it’s all the same.
Yeah, you kind of do need to nerf an intended mechanic to bring them in line. And again, it addresses the differences between the weapon sets instead of creating more.
I did provide proof. You have ppm which is a constant between the 2 weapons, you have 60s which is also a constant between the weapons, and then you have base attack speed which is the only thing that is different and that is either 2.6 or 3.6 depending on which weapon. If you change either the ppm or 60s if changes for DW too. And you can’t change the base weapon speed unless you just want 2h to hit even slower with auto attacks which would bring down the chance to get a crit and then by extension the chance to proc KM.
You would have to rewrite the code, I have already explained this before and ignoring the explanation is not “providing no proof” it’s you just ignoring it.
If you put RI into mastery just take away RI. And again, it’s been explained by others as well that there would have to be a change to the enchanting system to allow 2h to apply 2 runes to it, which would change it for everyone else as well. Again needing to rewrite the code to just allow 2h to do something.
That’s why it wouldn’t be 5%. The numbers would have to be thoroughly tested. And even then, I’m not trying to make it 80-80. Nobody really wants that. They just don’t want it to be as off as it is at current. The percentage’s goal isn’t to increase it “slightly”. You could in theory slap a passive on Frost have it say “when equipped with a two hander every auto will crit” and that’d do nothing? Going from 80-20 to 80-50 is nothing?
It’s not at current. They’re about equal which checks out in terms of math. You have to factor in even with 2 weapons, the raw stats provided by a 2h is more than 2 1hs. 80% of a 2h’s stats equal out to 120% of 2 1h’s. You don’t have to bring back MotFW, you can adjust each equation independently. If 2h Obliterates start to become oppressive in a PVP environment, drop that 2h number down a bit but keep the DW number the same. Done. What other issues am I getting into with this style of change?
Of course it’s easier to just nerf DW. Just as it would be easier to not change covenants to allow you to change them. Doesn’t mean its the best solution. There’s no need to defend Blizz’s possible laziness. You should be challenging it.
No you didn’t. There are 2 situations. 1, Players choose the covenant they want, are locked in and won’t be able to change throughout the expansion. 2, Players have free will to change throughout the covenants. One covenant turns out to be really good for your class or spec. You picked a weaker one because of aesthetic reasons. You don’t get invited to Raids of Mythic + because of it. In this scenario is 1 or 2 worse off for the player base as a whole? If they’re the same level of bad explain why.
I don’t want to bring them exactly in line. I’ll say it again and again until you stop arguing from a point of equality. I intend on bringing them closer. Even with all these changes DW WILL BE BETTER THAN 2H. But leaving 2h at current is unacceptable. I want to bring them closer. So answer the questions,
Why wouldn’t buffing the 2h side of the Obliterate equation bring them closer?
Why wouldn’t increasing the crit chance of 2h auto’s bring them closer?
Why wouldn’t buffing GA around 2h for the ability to apply Razorice bring them closer?
Why wouldn’t buffing Obliteration around a heavier 2h Obliterate equation bring them closer?
Not exactly in line, simply closer.
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Kelliste - you should seriously consider joining the light and taking up the path of a Paladin. You wouldn’t even need to justify your hostility towards Deathknights.
Just imagine standing above the corpses of you previous brothers wielding Ashbringer…
He or she isn’t being too hostile, just really firm about the absolute of their position. There are obvious things you can do to bring 2h in line avoiding the problems of yesteryear, the question has always been, not what they can do, what will they do. Kelliste leans on the path of the least work possible, just dumping it on saying “you want it here it is” and not balancing it, or just nerfing DW and going “they’re equal now, happy”, which is understandable. I don’t think we should let Blizz get away with either. These arguments are just a roundabout way of saying “Blizz won’t do anything get used to it now”. We should be pushing against it but after being burned so many times the effort can seem pointless.
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Yea. The feedback has been given. There is no way Bliz misses it. Ill just wait and see at this point. If a real effort isnt made to get 2H is a decent place, I will lose interest super fast and just not re-sub.
I have other games I can give my money to. Fingers crossed.
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Problem with paladins is ret had big dead zonss where for like 3-5 seconds your waiting for your abilities to come off cd. I love paladins and dks but there are a few things in each class that are just killing it for me.
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Ret does not feel that great to be fair. I have recently changed to Prot and plan to build my skill in tanking ahead of Shadowlands and am enjoying the spec a great deal so far. Crusader strike can really halt the flow of Rets rotation. Combined with poor mobility and only 1 hard CC its not a very enjoyable DPS spec IMO. Not to mention Ret paladins are pretty squishy with virtual no way to mitigate magic damage.
It was just a bit of tongue and cheek as it seems Kelliste in this thread and others rubs people the wrong way - regardless of his/her intentions.
Because they (and to a lesser extent me) before they actually brought back 2H were constantly posting in every 2H thread telling everyone it wasn’t coming back, and when it did, they moved the goalposts to it going to suck because DW was better and always has been.
Someone posts logs breaking down top parses by play style in WoD (which ironically Kelliste kept talking about because someone brought up 2H being great in Highmaul) and once that’s posted their argument shifts to “Nuh uh, DW was better” and they don’t proceed to link anything resembling proof to support what they’re saying.
They jump from thread to thread rehashing the same argument. That’s why he/she “rubs people the wrong way.” It’s even more annoying and hilarious because they trot out the old Dunning-Kruger “I’m right and you’re just mad I’m right.”
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I think she has this I don’t want it so you can’t have it like mentality when it comes to 2h frost.
And i love paladins and dks. I am looking at being an off tank for my guild. But prot having holy power is just…why i hate holy power for paladins. And that conversation is as toxic. I also miss seals for paladins. I love how it nade judgment interactive thats abother toxic subject.
Being told that someone had mained a paladin for 12 years and thaf if seals are brought back they would leave paladins and that my opinion doesn’t count yea…
Yes, people do want them equal, but at the moment they aren’t even close. And yes, it’s doing nothing, just like putting a band aid severed limb, it’s doing things half way which if you are going to do things half way it’s as good as not doing it at all and you will constantly be doing catch up.
Do it right the first time and you don’t have to worry about it anymore. Going from 4 times less to half as much is still a huge gap. If you want it balanced then DW has to be nerfed and the ppm increased to compensate. Funny how the people you said don’t want it to be perfectly balanced actually agree with me on this point. Doing even double km procs means that it gets the full 120% frost damage component more often increased by 15% before mastery.
Lets see if this 80% thing is true. DW strength for 440ilvl weapons 548, 2h str 549… 99.99% equal compared to this 80% figure you stated. DW crit is 136 compared to 167 for 2h, a bigger difference but it’s not even a big enough difference to equal 1% crit over DW since it’s basically 72 crit rating per 1%. Haste result is the same. Weapon dps is actually higher than 2h however for DW. Since DW offhand is 50% of the main hand, DW results in 467.25 weapon dps over the 412.8 for 2h. DW also misses with the offhand yet it still results in having a massive gap in km procs.
I answered you, twice on this covenant thing and now you are saying you are locked in in one scenario, while the other scenario is different. Of course then, you have to look at the scenario and not being able to swap at all is just flat out bad. But that’s not the scenario covenants are in is it? Imbalance is imbalance even if you shift it around.
I don’t care if you don’t want it to be equal, other people do and to eliminate people saying “no 2h frost death knights” you have to get them as close as possible.
I have already answered the increase in obliterate damage armor reducing physical damage as well as DW having 4 times as many km procs changing obliterate to frost damage. Even increasing obliterate by 40% through whatever means is not enough to bring them in line nor is increasing the crit chance of 2h autos. Band aids on top of band aids on top of band aids is not a solution.
Liar, I did not say it wasn’t coming back nor did I say that it shouldn’t. You are just taking other people’s words on it just because you guys are on “the same side”. The only thing I said about it that it shouldn’t come back if it results in a split in the spec.
I was also always saying what the issue was if you just lifted weapon restrictions so you are lying yet again. I also said that 2h was better in highmaul just like other people did that the 2h community was against and constantly attacked. What I actually said was that DW was better other than a few instances.
You seriously need to quit lying and talking about things that you weren’t even a part of. The reason I rub people the wrong way is because liars like you get under my skin and I call it out as I see it. That’s also not even the dunning-Kruger effect. The dunning-Kruger is overestimating their ability at a task, like screwing in a light bulb but they turn it the wrong way.
How can anyone take you seriously at this point? You have got to be trolling at this point.
Oh so that’s why I say that DW has to be nerfed for it to be balanced… riiight. If DW is nerfed and the ppm increased to compensate for it, how is that saying I don’t want 2h so you can’t have it?
I just don’t know why Blizzard would nerf an intended mechanic that has been that way for 11 years. If they want it to be balanced then it has to be done. It wouldn’t be perfect, but it would be the best course of action.
Sadly, 2h frost will never be like it was.
They would need to basically make 2 different play styles. With things being AP based, 2h obliterates will be basically the same number as dw. I just pray they find a way to balance the two so dw isn’t far superior.
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So again you say you didn’t say something and we find where you have said it.
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Why? Just add a viable talent to the final tier which buffs Oblits, so that they are a larger portion of your overall DPS. Would be fantastic to have a viable alternative to BoS anyway.
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If that talent is added, would it not affect dw as well? Adding a talent that only affects dw or 2h will never happen since it makes it an obsolete choice for the other. The big obliterates will come because it scales off mastery with km procs at max level in SL.
They aren’t going to design two different specs of frost, 1 for dw and 1 for 2h. The way the game is going, itll never happen. What I think they will do is have both specs gameplay similar in terms of how it plays. But the damage will not be like how things were before in wrath since it is all ap based.
I’m a big advocate for 2h frost coming back. I hate dw dks. But it wont be the 2h frost like it was before. Itll be a new kind of frost. The scaling with km procs in sl is going to be fun, but that damage will be the same for dw or 2h. Only difference is one big number vs 2 smaller ones.
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Why does it ONLY have to impact DW or 2H. That’s a false choice. Give FROST SPEC the option to spec into BOS for a more DoT/consistent DPS build OR and improved Obliteration talent which provides a more Obliterate centrist build.
Respectfully, I seriously don’t understand why every balancing debate had to turn into a X will impact Y weapon set unfairly…
Balance DW and 2H so that runeforges and KM procs are equal, then make sure the talents provide either weapon set the opportunity to be a BOS/DoT build OR a bursty Obliterate build. This reality would mean everyone wins.
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Thays what I’m saying. There is no point to have a talent only affect one or the other.
I doubt a new obl talent will come since it now scales off of our mastery on km procs. Which depending on armor is 20+30 percent more damage plus the mastery on top of it.