What would need to change to make 2H viable? I remember growing up playing Shaman and I thought 2H Enh Shaman being the coolest thing ever
2 Likes
The entire toolkit otherwise we lose out on a lot of abilities. Also hope that WF is bugged and can chain on itself.
AKA: it’s not happening.
This is just not true. WF is important, but as Doom Winds showed us, can be placed in a more reliable rotation, rather than just waiting for RNG procs off of melee.
I would even say that a 2H build could easily be viable with either Stormstrike or Lava Lash.
Examples:
LL build: Instead of WF procs, we now get earth spike procs and instant lightning bolt procs could become instant sundering bursts instead.
SS build: Stormstrike can now proc Crash Lightning, leaving a pulsing circle of lightning on the ground.
Lastly, WF is iconic, but has gone through several changes. The fantasy of being swept up by wind power to unleash a flurry of attacks sounds cool, but has never really blossomed. What if WF wasn’t a proc, but an ability that we could control when to best use, something like the Monk’s Fists attack?
2h DK is different than DW, but they didn’t have to rework the entire spec to make it work, just some of the ways certain abilities interact.
P.S. Many of the limiting conditions on our abilities were added to specifically force Shaman players to engage in the class differently (the way Blizzard was pushing for.) Shortly after the DW option became available, Shamans would run with high speed off hand weapons to allow for some ridiculous damage procs. It’s literally the reason Blizzard gave as to why they standardized MH and OH weapon types and speeds.
3 Likes
“its not true that the entire toolkit would have be to changed, I will show you this, by listing my examples of changing the entire toolkit”
4 Likes
Ding ding lol.
I didn’t change the entire toolkit. I would actually argue that my changes were less than from BfA to Shadowlands.
I just ENHANCED the existing toolkit… like what I did there.
2 Likes
"I didnt change the entire tool kit.
I just changed storm strike, lava lash, windfury, crash lightning."
You are right. I will concede you didn’t change the entire toolkit. Only nearly all of it.
Yes. Enhancing something is a form of changing it.
You also dumbed down 2H with your suggestions. “What if I made a bunch of the DW abilities just passives”
2H enhance was never part of the enhance class fantasy. That early on in WoW, there was not any spec fantasy. They didn’t think that far ahead.
I am amused you think this.
And that you literally proved the exact opposite of what you said.
You are delusional.
2h was literally a talent in the enhancement shaman tree. It was absolutely part of the fantasy.
Spec fantasy came out of the talent trees.
“Completely changing the toolkit” implies that the current abilities we have couldn’t work.
Clearly I need to be more literal when I respond.
Yes, adding BACK a play style that used to exist and many players have asked for will change the toolkit, but it doesn’t require completely reworking the spec from the ground up.
So you are all right, enhancing an ability by making it useful with new effects or usable with a new weapon type is a rework, you got me, it is a complete rework…
One I absolutely advocate for.
I’m not sure what I’m “delusional” about. I concede that my idea of “completely reworked” in my mind is different than updating, adding too, or slightly changing existing features in the tooltip.
But maybe you missed the part where I pointed out that the current gameplay was literally a complete rework of what the spec was in Vanilla. Don’t take my word for it. Log into classic, make a shaman and read the talents page. Third row talent : 2H axe and maces. Every effective build back then used 2H as a base for gameplay.
To be super clear, I used existing tools that could still be used with a 2H without massively changing our play style.
What abilities are we supposedly losing out on? Have you even played 2H frost DK? It is different than DW, but it didn’t change anything around the way DW frost DK plays.
Gotta love responses that say your ideas are bad, you know because…. Um, reasons? Oh no reasons, just because…
2 Likes
There was no spec fantasy in Classic, as there was barely even fully fleshed specs. It was a lot of underdeveloped hodge podge. By the time they actually gave the spec any “spec fantasy” enhance was solidly a DW class.
That is correct. You outlined this by changing the abilities that wouldn’t work so that they would.
Kids have been born and enrolled in college since the last time 2h spec was a real “play style”.
Thats fine. Advocate for it all you want. Just realize you are yelling into the wind.
You may be ok with bringing back 2h under the guise of dumbing down the class (per your class changes). But apparently the devs are not. Thankfully.
1 Like
While technically you would need to “change” a lot of abilities, you could pretty easily make 2h possible with incredibly minor “changes”.
Just add 2h damage calculations to the abilities that calculate damage based off weapons. That’s it. Sure, it might not be perfect, might not play great, and might not be competitive in certain content… but you would be able to play 2h Shaman and not have a ton of your abilities automatically get greyed out.
On the other hand, an idea that would be a little bit more work… (also not sure how awful/good/broken this would be, but…)
• make Lava Lash a choice type talent between Lava Lash and Ice Strike
• have Ice Strike include damage calculations for both DW and 2h
• split hailstorm/fire nova
• swap feral lunge and hailstorm
• put fire nova where ice strike used to be
• swap swirling maelstrom and hot hands
Doing this would be a lot more involved and making so many talent position changes might have repercussions outside of the immediate intended change. With these changes, the idea is that Enhance would focus on frost abilities for PvP or a more control oriented build, focus on fire abilities for a more PvE or sustained damage build, and allow 2h enhance to be a thing.
2 Likes
What we view as “minor” are not usually minor. You literally right after this said you need to do some more calculations for 2H. So it’s not minor? Calculations can be time consuming and hard, especially when dealing with things that can scale. It becomes way harder.
Designers probably spend hours and probably need an agreement by committee trying to figure out that right calculations for things.
I still think people think what will happen is the Vanilla video of the dude with Sulfuras one-shorting people. Blizz will not ever let that happen again.
Maybe? Maybe not? Crash Lightning already has damage calculations for a 2h. Classic WoW has damage calculations with consideration that Shaman will use a 2h. Frost DK has damage calculations and planning/consideration for using either DW or 2h. Arms Warrior abilities have 2h damage calculations as does Retribution Paladins.
Basically, they already have plenty of experience and even somewhat of a template for adding 2h weapon damage calculations. It’s not like they would have to draw up a plan from scratch to make things happen.
For some people, maybe, sure? I mean, current Enhancement Shaman already sort of looks like that… in the sense that between the multiple abilities that use your weapon, maelstrom weapon to free cast a spell, and having Stormstrike CD potentially reset multiple times in a row, it appears very similar to getting a lucky multi-WF proc. The difference is really just using a 2h instead of two 1h.
Having played frost DK from the beginning all the way through to when they could only DW… I can’t really put it into words very well but playing around with a 2h just feels more satisfying to me.
Lastly, 2h weapon mogs are way better than 1h.
1 Like
Enough ppl caring
1 Like
This is actually something that I would like. But actually doing 2h, I don’t really care about. If it ever became a thing, I’d only use it for PvP. PvE would still be DW.
1 Like
“An RNG proc you have no control over is basically the same thing as strategically lining up half a dozen abilities and using them separately”
1 Like
This is just not true… Conversations around spec fantasy were happening from launch. Many of the modern specs we have are literally born out of those conversations.
The only ability I implied doesn’t work is WF, and then I offered other potential high dps swaps to compensate for 1 ability not working… not an entire rework.
2h Enhancement was a viable play style through the first patch of WotK. Not sure what kind of time your talking about, unless you know some 14 year old college kids.
How is swapping WF (a RNG based mechanic that happens independent of player skill) with a different DPS mechanic tied to a more determinable DPS output “dumbing down the spec?” Our spec is literally a game of whack a mole built around utilizing big RNG windows. It’s probably one of the most reactionary specs vs one that is built around player directly creating builder/spender burst windows.
It’s cool that you want to engage in why it wouldn’t work, but again… “Just because it’s different, it’s bad” isn’t a good argument. Also this idea that because it existed before in a terrible way means it has to look the same today is silly. DW shaman today looks like nothing prior to WoD…. And many other classes have benefitted from More options being made to the players.
If you don’t like the idea, don’t play it. Nobody is saying kill DW shaman, just open up the option for those of us that miss the days of wielding a hefty 2h.
2 Likes
Here’s my final thought on this.
It seems to me that the primary reason Blizzard has given for why 2H can’t be viable has to do with WF procs. Either a misguided memory or idea about the “big hits” chained by WF or some other fundamental problem with the classes “fantasy design.”
If WF procs for 2H is such a bad mechanic, why did Blizzard bring back WF totem, then have Ion go on several interviews talking about how WF is a great mechanic for Warriors who primarily use 2H?
I like WF and I think it’s an interesting ability, but it is probably one of the least iconic tools related to Shamans. If the idea of keeping the integrity of WF means a massive handicap to exploring other potential enhancement options, then I’d be glad to lose it.
1 Like
This was not reflected in design philosophy.
Flametongue weapon, and lava lash would like to have a major word with you.
It was “viable” in the same sense its viable today.
You only did it as a joke, and intentionally were gimping yourself.
Your suggestions were flat out removing part of the rotation so that it would be baked in passive.
“And just because we sorta had it 15+ years ago” isnt a good argument either.
Thats the point. You miss something that was only relevant until the first expansion of WoW. If you were 2h post that, you were just intentionally hurting yourself…which was compensated by how simple early WoW mechanics were…which had a very very low threshold to pass.
You can still hold a 2h and do trivial content in WoW today.
1 Like
Akston, all this is good and fine to believe, and you can disagree with me about every point I make.
The thing is, you haven’t actually made a case for why it isn’t viable.
Sure something in the game 15 years ago doesn’t need to be in the game.
Yes, some changes would have to be made to some skills… isn’t that what talents do? Isn’t this why we are getting the new talent system?
Maybe I do miss the nostalgia of what my character looked like wielding a 2h. That doesn’t mean anything to what I think Blizzard Devs are capable of doing.
Maybe it was just a joke, but then again so was the idea of fury warrior DW 2H weapons… and it’s a pretty popular play style today.
I already conceded that I took “a complete rework of the toolkit” and my ideas of what I thought of as “some minor changes to a few abilities.” As a misunderstanding. Clearly if you change 1 part of a rotation in the modern WoW player’s mind that’s a complete rework.
So you tell me why you don’t think it’s viable. Give me one clear breakdown of how offering Enhancement shamans the ability to use 2H weapon would destroy the integrity of the class?
I’m waiting….
1 Like