Yeah, I mean the thing you have twice mentioned to now without providing evidence for once. The irrefutable proof that we were all “put on notice” about the raid size requirements for SOD. The amazing proof that we should all know about but you couldn’t find two seconds to source.
Okay so which is it? First you say the original game required 40 people so you should expect to need a large raiding group. Then you say that we can’t expect SoD raid size changes just because it’s a divergence from classic. Then you talk about a blue post from “forever ago” saying MC is 20 players. You’re all over the place on this.
Exactly how I feel about finding 19 or 39 other people to raid with. Exactly my sentiments towards having a less significant role in the game I’m playing. I like that you couldn’t come up with a single reason why you think 20man raiding is superior to 10man raiding.
You couldn’t make a fight like At’lai Guardians in a 10 man. The delta between groups with the tools and those without is too big and it’s unfair to make assumptions about comp. Similarly a 10 man might not even have a viable decurse option. 10 mans in BFD and Gnomer were pigeonholed into running a Priest healer to accommodate demands from the raid snd those were both babies first raid. You couldn’t make an actual difficult raid with a 10 man without causing problems. Especially with SoD class design.
EDIT: I realize you mean the 3rd boss in ST. Just make it so less of the bosses revive or add additional CC options. It’s not difficult.
Easy to address assuming the people designing the game are even remotely competent.
- Actually balance the classes correctly
- It’s Season of Discovery. Give more classes decurse.
It’s actually quite amazing what you can do when the people designing the game actually, you know, play or understand the game they are designing.
If you don’t like then you unsubscribe that’s your only option. Suggesting changes is not your job end of story
You can’t be serious…Season of Discovery Developer Update - Feb 27, 2024
- Classic also had 20 player raids. I said nothing about 40 player raids in my response to you. Even UBRS was originally 15 players…
- See previous blue response from late February.
I don’t waste my time trying to convince people like you to like 20 player content. You aren’t going to change your mind.
I content myself with reminding you that Blizzard was very clear about 10 players not being the end game.
Picking this particular version to build SoD. Every version of which has, in fact, had 40 player raids: Classic, Season of Mastery, and Hardcore. There was ZERO chance they were going to retrofit everything down to 10 player raids. They might all end up 20. They were never going to be 10.
They further notified us about 20 player MC in February meaning if you weren’t making plans to join a larger guild at that point, you were fooling yourself. They even notified us that the P3 level 50 raid was going to be 20 players…in February.
Finally, I am not suggesting 40 players are superior. I prefer them. They allow for a different scale of fight than what a 20 player fight allows. That includes things like heavier damage from a boss. Requiring more tanks in a rotation (like 4h). Being able to actually have a fight like pre-nerf Shade because you can have multiple players die and the raid can still succeed. Yes, 40 player raids tend to be easier. A lot of that is due to the overlap in builds allowing for some built in failure where the smaller raids don’t have the same margin for error.
I have more reasons, but again, I am not trying to convince you. You won’t agree with me regardless.
If you don’t like the thread then don’t read it, that’s your only option. Suggesting changes to my behavior is not your job, end of story.
You understand that the “notice” you linked is from Feb 27th, and SoD launched in November, right?
So after months of creating guilds and relationships around the 10man raiding design, the “blue post from forever ago” that gave us notice a month before the phase (April 4th) that required 20 people to raid?
Yes. Next question.
But I will elaborate. Both guilds I have been in knew with 100% certainty from the beginning that the raids weren’t going to stay 10 players. Why? We played in Classic. Both guilds had planned to expand to be able to do 40 player content eventually on the assumption that the game being Classic would mean 40 player content eventually. Most of them had also just played Hardcore…also 40 player content based on the Classic game. First guild didn’t succeed and split up. Second guild is doing very well moving forward with the assumption it will eventually have to support 40 player content.
Anyone who didn’t take that mindset was fooling themselves. It was never going to be 10 player content. Ever. Stop pretending your willful blindness is Blizzard’s fault.
You still can’t make up your mind on this. You only cite SoD as “classic” when it supports your argument. You say you planned to do 40man content yet MC is releasing as 20man (not classic). You say Blizzard was abundantly clear about the raid design yet somehow, again, were incorrectly planning for 40man raids when, in actuality, it’s 20man.
Okay, so you admit the change destroyed 50% of the guilds you were in. Sounds like great design. Why are you assuming you need to support 40man content? I thought Blizzard is crystal clear about the expectations?
Right, it’s not like you know, there have been tons and tons of successful 10man raiding content in WoW. It’s not like FF14 has been extremely successful around the design or anything. With them retooling MC to 20man, it’s completely out of the realm of possibility they could do it to 10man.
Simplify or homogenize… oh boy, those are great options.
The point is that you can make a fight like this in 20 man that feels textured in a way a 10 man wouldn’t. I like 10 man, don’t get me wrong, but there are certain things you can do in a 20 man.
Oh boy, now I sound like Brewa…
I feel this is quite clear. We had no idea they were going to make MC 20 player content when we originally joined the game. SoD is a version of Classic. Classic MC was 40 players. We assumed we would need 40 players at 60. That might not end up being the case for BWL, AQ40, or Naxx. Time will tell. At least my guild will be prepared to clear the content if they aren’t 20 players. If they are, then I guess we have 2 raids.
No, the lack of organization and anyone really wanting to recruit killed the first guild. It was struggling to survive with 10 player content. That’s not Blizzard’s fault. That’s not 20 player content fault. That’s a guild that was never going to make it. Everyone is still friends. Discord is still up. Sometimes there is chatter. Maybe next version of the game we get back together for a while again. Until then, we go our separate ways.
Except this is a game built on Classic. There have been 3 different games built on Classic. All of them had 40 player content. All of them had 20 player content. The only 10 player raid was UBRS and if you are banking on UBRS for your proof the game was going to be 10 players vs every other raid in the game, you are an idiot.
Not playing FF14. Stay on topic.
Wait, did they retool it down to 10 players? They didn’t? Ah. I see. more hopium instead of a realistic assessment of the baseline game. Sounds like literally every other statement you have made. “I hope it is 10 player because the level 25 and level 40 raids were 10 player.” Shoot, in that Blue post, Blizzard flat out stated they weren’t sure they would be retooling the other 40 players down to 20 player let alone 10. But sure…they were going to make it 10 player content.
Cope. More.
Quantity != complexity
Having 4 priests shackle is no more complicated that having 2 priests shackle. You just need to find two more priests with a pulse.
Class balance != homogenization
Roles should have their own niches yes, but have roughly similar power levels. Designing a raid that “requires” a certain number of certain classes is neither good raid design nor complicated.
Your problem isn’t actually with the size of the people in the raid. Your problem is with Blizzard’s ability to design raids.
I’m not going to continue to keep discussing this with you when you can’t even be consistent with what you’re saying.
Please stop telling me to cope. I parse higher than you in this content I don’t even enjoy. Nice Shadowblade 
#yawn. I realize discussion points broader than “10 player good” aren’t your forte, but you could at least attempt to keep up.
I mean, you come on here and do nothing but cope. What do you want me to tell you?
I rather like the Shadowblade. If I had Julie’s I would probably have one run where I MH SB and OH Julie’s to try to maximize poison procs Wrath style.
See that’s the thing. I usually try out different things on a week to week basis just to see what I like. That can be a different build. Different runes. Different skill order. Different gear setup. Etc. One week we had too many melee, so I volunteered to be in the healer group. I don’t particularly care about my parses. I have an entire set of Classic parses in all major phases where I went hard. My raid is clearing the raid in about 50-60 minutes every week and I am doing good damage within that my raid context. Anything else is just numbers.
Cope. More.
lol, lmao even. Sounds like weapons-grade copium, my dude!
If you say so. I know why my parses are what they are which is something I guarantee you don’t understand 
This week I am trying to decide which dagger combination I want to run which will determine which rune combination I want to run. I may even change up my build so it generates more combo points. Why? Because I can.
Truly, the real classic community.
You know whats like retail? Retail 
The fact that you think it’s okay to demand 2 Priests in a 10 man is crazy and exactly my point.
I did this boss last night with 2 Priests and it was quite hectic. Going from 4 to 3 is a small step, going from 4 to 2 is a huge dip. But that’s the nature of 10 mans. You either have the stuff and it’s trivial or you don’t and it’s a nightmare.
With 10 man you also miss out on the logistics and assignment aspect or adapting on the fly.
I dunno I’ve just had a fantastic time with 20 man ST. I’ve generally been a “give me 10 man or give me death” type of guy but ST has been a blast. It’s not like how cringe 20 mans on Retail are.
1 Like
i don’t know man. i could see the SoD devs caving to whiners and making it all 10 man 