I think that’s the weird thing. Right now Arcane Shot is doing decent damage, which means you can almost get away with being ranged. Probably not their intent but it does muddy the waters regarding where they are going.
Is it weird that I wish BM hunter and Survival were both … how do i say hybrid. Let both equip melee weapons and bows at the same time, but your main damage is based on your better weapon. For example, BM still focuses on the use of kill command and pets as damage, having barbed shot usable with melee weapons but if they cast raptor strike or cobra shot, they get the same effect as if they used cobra shot, and if they use carve that hits up to 5 targets, just like multishot, it also applies beast cleave. They just dont have any real VALUE out of being melee simply a choice, dealing more damage at range or in melee based on their main weapon. On the flip side, Survival should be able to equip a bow as well, and fire arcane shot or cobra shot, and still get value out of things on their tree such as mongoose bite, but make it more like … Mongoose STRIKE, or something. Multishot should also be usable by survival but be on a cooldown just like carve, and still reduce the cds of their grenades just as if they were melee. There, that’s all they have to do.
Personally I think BM should have been the melee spec if anything. SV had a lot of flavorful ranged abilities.
BM abilities are so generic that they baked their nuke into SV anyway. When I think Beast Master I think of someone wading into the thick of combat with their pets.
You’re not the first one to suggest something like this.
Honestly, in such a case, they better just merge the two into one.
1 pet focused spec with a ranged weapon
1 pet focused spec with a melee weapon
I mean…as for damage boosts to specific weapon types, that can all be handled within a single talent.
Note that I would prefer if we keep the 3 specs as they are(their general themes that is) and just add in a 4th spec for those of us who wants the old RSV back.
At least this way, we get that extra playstyle to focus on something that is unique within the class, adding both new strengths as well as weaknesses to it.
(the reliance on DoTs that is)
If you hate being a hunter so much then just play your warrior man, but those of us who like playing as a hunter would like to please have back one of our specs that was deleted. I imagine if your favorite spec in the game got deleted then you would ‘whine’ about it for quite some time too. It’s a completely legitimate change (read: mistake) to take qualm with.
Anyone who opposes bringing back actual SV as a fourth spec is a troll and their opinion on the matter should be ignored by blizzard. There is literally no reason to not do it. Old SV was one of the most popular specs in the game. New SV is the least popular spec in the game. Blizzard acknowledges this by trying to shove in a bunch of ranged abilities to melee SV, to try to somehow please those who rolled hunter to play as a hunter and not just some warrior with a pet.
The numbers don’t lie. Only people who oppose bringing back ranged SV do.
Because our WoW Forum avatar means thats our only class we class or even that is our main ? Hes posting on a gnome warrior avatar… could be playing his hunter.
Guess what, almost all class lost something they loved, some wants it back some move on.
Is being realistic and knows the terrible impact it would have on the game.
There is a couple. But you didn’t research enough.
False information.
Thats some personal theory conspiracy thinking that you have. Not their agenda.
Yet, only those wanting the SV ranged back have been manipulating data and using false numbers.
You need to do some research man.
Which one though? The warrior class that has existed since vanilla or the new warrior spec that replaced Survival for some reason?
And I’m not saying that nobody else should get back what they wanted. Blizzard should bring back a lot of things that they deleted like dummies. The entire Survival spec should just be near the top of that list of priorities, since it is, again, an entire spec and not just a single ability or a twirling orb animation. Thankfully it seems that they recognize how dumb they were to remove so many things in the past, and are seeking to fix that in this xpac (we’ll see if it actually works). So there is hope.
The terrible impact already happened when they removed it. There was a mass exodus from the Hunter class totaling about 250,000 hunter players. Old ranged SV was one of the most popular specs in the game, while new melee SV is the least popular. We have the numbers that show us how terrible the change was, but I haven’t seen anything, not a single reason, as to why it would be a bad decision to add ranged SV as a fourth spec. Do you think it would cost us a raid tier or something?
Enlighten me if you can.
You’re right. Looks like things have changed since I last posted here. It is now the second least popular behind subtlety: (I was going to post a link to wargraphs here but blizzard isn’t letting me post links. Thanks blizzard)
Before you nitpick, yes I do consider 1+ bosses killed as a better metric than just what spec people log out as.
I like using logic for things. Blizzard as a company hate being wrong, so they hide it as much as they can. Originally melee SV didn’t have many ranged abilities, if any. Now it has a LOT. The logical conclusion is that Blizzard acknowledged that melee hunter is no good and so they try to make it work by throwing ranged abilities at it.
Do you have an alternative explanation for why so many ranged abilities are being reintroduced to melee SV, that has nothing to do with Hunters being a ranged class, or with the fact that melee hunter was a flop?
Can you show me the data that says that ranged SV wasn’t more popular than melee sv then? Because from all the data I see it is the opposite.
What ? Im saying its just an avatar… a forum name we have. Doesn’t mean thats our played character.
Then you are using a complete incomplete data. Mythic Raiding covers only but a small part of the pie on WoW. The other % next to it will be 10 times more accurate, not perfect still but definitively more accurate.
Heroic raiders, M+ dungeons, RP, Non Rated BG, Arena, Rated BG, Wpvpers, farmers are not included.
Like you said, your words, “The terrible impact already happened”
They wont revert because it will cause the same effect, a lot enjoy the current survival hunter. Going back would only add fuel to the fire and move it at a different place.
Adding a 4th spec is simply more fuel. Wheres my 3rd spec DH ? Wheres my Tank spec Shaman? Wheres my ??? spec. Hunters aren’t the only ones in this game.
Its very costy $$$$, this isnt simply doing a copy past from data that is lost / archived. (Just look at vanilla, they had to spend a lot of time to get some stuff back) Not only that, they need to re adjust it to current wow. Balancing it, numbers, etc. So thats a lot of $$$ for one spec. Is it worth it, will adding that one spec back make them earn what they invested back ?
Nop. Would barely cover it and the end result would simply be having a few happy folks, angry mobs because it aint the same as it used to be (due to the modification to fit current patch)
Because SV hunter is a hybrid, ranged and melee. Because the unpruned skills they picked were ranged, so they kept it that way for SV. Because Blizzard is a company, not a person… you cannot guess its emotion, logic or w.e, there’s tons of people behind it all with different ideas.
Right. I’m just saying that if he wants to play warrior to play his warrior, and to let those of us who want to play a hunter play a hunter without worrying about losing one of our specs only for it to be replaced with a warrior spec.
Is there a new site that gives the numbers for each category? Again I don’t like to point to the number of specs according to players who merely level capped and logged off. I would say that there would be a large number of people who play melee on their hunter alts because they don’t like to be ranged, thus why they didn’t play hunter. If there was a way to take alts out of the equation then I’d say that number would be better. But as of now that number could just as easily represent everyone who was like “Oh neat a melee hunter spec. I’ll try that out… meh this is boring” and then they log off in SV.
But Blizzard has already done this twice. They split feral into feral and guardian because the two playstyles were harming each other when they were combined as one spec. If that was enough justification to add a fourth spec to druids, then removing old SV from the game would be a way more justified reason to bring back old SV. Imagine if instead of splitting feral into feral and guardian they just removed cat form and its playstyle and made feral only a tank spec.
Furthermore, the “Where’s my 3rd spec DH?” or “Where’s my tank shaman?” already happened with the feral split, just like it happened before because people are always asking for new specs. The problem is that they are asking for new specs, not old specs that blizzard removed. If blizzard removed fire from mages, or discipline from priests, and replaced them with new melee specs not even similar to the old ones, then they would be in the same spot as ranged SV. Comparing the reintroduction of ranged SV after its removal to “Muh shaman tank spec” is just silly.
Well since blizzard stopped sending out their internal numbers it is difficult to tell exactly. That said, when ranged SV was removed at the beginning of Legion the Hunter class lost ~250,000 players. Hunters lost way more players than any other class in the game by a large margin. It’s clear that removing ranged SV caused a great loss of players, even more so than other class changes made to other classes going into Legion. So we can at least know that reintroducing SV would not only not drive players away, but it would work towards bringing them back.
Also, I don’t buy that it would really cost all that much money in the grand scheme of things. There are already 48 specs in the game. One more spec that already has a class basis, historical basis in gameplay, and has been historically very, very popular, would be a no brainer to bring back. There is even less risk in reintroducing SV than in introducing a new class/spec. It would require less development time than a new spec and less balancing than a new spec too.
These arguments against bringing back SV could be made about literally every single new piece of content that has ever been added and will ever be added into the game. Plus it would actually serve as good will towards the community, in a time where blizzard desperately needs it.
Ya, now it is after they’ve added all these ranged abilities because melee SV wasn’t working. But it wasn’t when it was introduced in Legion. Unless you count the throwing axes talent as exclusively sufficient in establishing a class as ‘ranged’.
And at the end of the day a decision is made. Not a bunch of different decisions. A company isn’t just a random number generator. They still do things for reasons, and you can still use logic to consider what those reasons were.
Survival is currently amazing and really fun.
I don’t think you understand at all what I wrote, nor that you are even trying.
Yes, there’s a lot of factor of tryouts , alts and etc. It still remain the most accurate data there is out there. You cannot base the popularity of a spec based on a 5% (random small number) of WoW’s population.
At the time, both feral and guardian were played in the same tree, it was there. It wasn’t some archived data or deleted codes. They simply split it.
It would bring some back, but like I said, it will never cover the cost. And please stop using that made up data on hunter losing most and etc.
Forgot to add, on the long term its even more work on the balancing. 1 more spec is like adding a number to the multiplier.
It currently is hybrid in BFA… not cause of SL addition.
That it is. Specially compared to its other two specs. More interaction, thinking and less brain dead rotation.
It’s closer to the number it would be if only mains were counted, rather than everyone and their brother’s hunter alt that hit level cap and was abandoned. Personally I think that the opinions of hunter mains matter more than those who just alt hunter.
The feral/guardian split was the counter-point to the idea that blizzard wouldn’t do it because then everyone would want a fourth spec. I specifically quoted that part of your argument and gave you this response in order to show you that it was an irrelevant argument.
What are you basing this off of? It will never cover the cost? How do you know that exactly? How can you claim that I am citing made up numbers that are actually real, while you insist that “It will never cover the cost” with literally nothing to show for it?
Pre-Legion: https:// web.archive. org/web/20160916071823/ http:// www.worldofwargraphs. com/global-stats/classes
Post-Legion: https:// web.archive. org/web/20161104192544/ http:// www.worldofwargraphs. com/global-stats/classes
Just remove all the spaces. There you go. There’s your ‘fake’ numbers.
Ya, and it was added in Legion, and it was exclusively a melee spec back then. Them adding in ranged abilities was in response to melee hunter being so bad, whether it was in bfa or it will be in sl.
Ah, so you’re just a hater then? Makes sense. You don’t want the hunter spec to come back because you hate hunters. You are glad it was deleted because you hate hunters. The good question then, is why should your opinion should be considered in the slightest on whether or not ranged SV should come back when you hate the hunter class as a whole?
Samething… not all mains gets to do Mythic, nor are they interested in it.
Said it yourself, fake numbers. Incomplete data, cannot be used. Ignoring major factor.
I get it, you now resolve to petty insult or hate.
At this point, you’re pretty much a Hate Crusader much like another hunter on this forum here, to the point that I could say you’re just him using a different name.
You go on, keep your hate crusade, keep using incomplete data to boost your false claims.
Goodbye Crusader Spinnerdh
A percentage of mains is better than literally all level capped alts. A percentage of mains is a better example of the hunter community because it isn’t diluted by alts. If you have better numbers like you claimed then show them. If you can’t show them, then we can only conclude that you don’t have them.
What major factors that apply only to Hunters but not to any other class? Why don’t you just say what the major factors are instead of having to wait for me to ask? If you had real data to back up what you’re saying you would have already given it, like I already asked for. But no, you didn’t. So I, and other thinking people, are left to conclude that it doesn’t exist.
I’m just using facts, logic and reason to argue my point. You’re the one who called the Hunter class brain dead, yet think your opinion should matter on whether the Hunter class receives changes that Hunters would like? I haven’t played since vanilla but I mained Hunter since Wrath, taking a break during bfa.
So not only do I have the data to support my claims while you have none, but you don’t even like the Hunter class. Again, explain to me why your opinion should matter in this regard. You have neither valid facts nor valid opinions concerning the Hunter class. So all you can do is hurl hate and call me names and then project that I am the ‘hate crusader’.
First, I wouldn’t whine about something for four plus years. I’m not a petulant child. Second, I enjoy hunter, and especially melee SV. I’ve also said numerous times I couldn’t care less if Blizz brought back SV as a 4th spec.
Third, your ilk keeps turning every post into the same whiney meme threads. Blizz has already said they aren’t making large changes for SL, which includes bringing back ranged SV.
Fourth, if you want to go about and call people liars, you should probably not lie and throw out random things as facts. Sub and arcane are just as ill represented in pve, but you conveniently are ignoring pvp where SV is played a lot.
I’ll also let you ponder the sheer stupidity of saying numbers don’t lie, without providing a single number to support your claims. Using worldofwargraphs is equivalent to making up numbers as there are so many variables not included in that data set. It’s ironic that you claim to use logic while trying to site horrendously bad data. And then doubling down and calling other people liars.
What are you basing that statement on?
Besides…you want to talk “cost”?
How about the most recent SV reworks 2 expansions in a row?
If anything, the result of those isn’t “covering the cost”.
Made up how?
Warlocks got Demo overhauled? It’s still a spec dedicated to the summoning and empowerment of Demons isn’t it?
Rogues saw Combat overhauled into Outlaw?
It’s still a spec dedicated to the more direct impact of combat, relying on two 1h weapons, isn’t it?
Now take SV for hunters…
Is it still a spec dedicated to the use of the ranged weapon?
Followed closely by the theme of enhancing existing hunter traps. Does current SV do that?
It’s middle of the pack in rated arena. That’s all.
And that isn’t because it’s a melee spec. That is in spite of being so. Much thanks to some specific PvP-talents.
And as for the Hunter class, it’s also because the other 2 aren’t exactly performing well in PvP(rated arena in particular).
Besides, the old SV was a lot more popular in PvP in general(not just rated arena) compared to that of MSV.
Reading comprehension…unless you want to argue that middle of the pack means the same thing as lowest representation of any class…
Show me some valid data then ? Cause you know, I’m sure there’s none. Too many variables.
SV going melee, yes some numbers but that certainly ain’t the major reason, there’s way too many to be one main reason… or rather, too many untracked reasons to know which is really the cause of players leaving hunter. From having the new super hyped class DH to some reason like not having the funds/time to play anymore.
I think you took Darkeforge’s reply completely out of context ? Middle, bottom, top tier… isn’t relevant to what he said.
I mean, that’s what you are doing though… when you whine about people wanting ranged SV back. Yet you insist that you aren’t a petulant child? Apparently wanting Blizzard to bring back a spec that was deleted from the game, for four years, is unreasonable and childish. But whining about the people wanting them to bring it back for four years is completely reasonable and only truly mature adults do it.
Do you understand how change happens? Change won’t happen if the Hunter community is silent and don’t express that they want ranged SV back. Why would Blizzard spend time bringing back the spec they deleted if nobody expressed that they wanted it brought back?
Blizzard has also expressed that SL is when they are bringing back pruned abilities and things that they removed. I’d think that would be the perfect time to bring back an entire pruned spec.
Why would I focus on PvP, which is essentially a mini-game? The vast majority of consumed content is PvE.
Well where are better numbers? Blizzard doesn’t provide them. Why don’t you?
Even if it was middle of the pack. That’s still a huge drop from consistently being one of the most popular specs in the game.
First, I haven’t spent the last four years whining about SV being made melee. It’s only recently because every thread is derailed by his and Ghorak’s incessant rants. Not even close to similar.
Second, there is a difference between expressing the desire for wanting RSV back, and turning every single thread about SV into a literal rant. Again, if you can’t grasp that seek help.
Third, sub and arcane are just as ill-represented in pve as well if you want to be daft and take that route. Sub is by far worse than MSV.
Fourth, I don’t need to provide better numbers, because I accept that Blizz doesn’t track and/or provide those numbers to the general populace. And you conveniently ignore the variables you can’t account for in your conclusions. Ignoring them and claiming x, y, and z just makes your argument weaker. No one would argue the change drive some hunters away, you’re throwing out numbers that are garbage mean zip.
And SV was only popular because it was damn near OP in the last raid tiers before being “hung up” prior to the change. SV wasn’t nearly as popular as you are claiming.