Please check out our new Hero Talents preview and let us know what you think in this thread.
1 Like
Havoc as it is now in DF is a spec that has evolved from one of the easiest spec to play to one of the most complex.
The main change that pushed the class to unfriendly territory are the short duration buffs and the cooldowns that get desynched. The entire dps rests in lining up a lot of CDs in a small window.
Class fantasy
the hero class rests on a spell (glaive) that is not the main class fantasy. The main class fantasy are Eye Beam, metamorphosis and blade dance as iconic abilities. Throwing x is not.
Design is problematic.
Having to pick up souls as the main building ressource in order to do damage has been tried before and it is not fun having to fight a boss, dodge stuff and intentionally or not pickup ressources you cannot control.
I rather the fragment are ressources like rogue combo points that we can build and then spend when needed.
Thrill of the fight is another short duration buff. The class need to stay clear of addional complexe short window of burst. It is hard to play around and hard to balance. Those that will manage to get the stars to align will literrally be overpowered (think pvp) and those that cant will be wondering what happened to the class.
The buff also cause your next ability to deal 30% damage. We cannot control when we get the buff and when we get the buff we might be able or not to align it with our hardest hitting ability (hunt) or⌠a wet noodle one that doesnt not hit hard an wastes the buff. This is is not fun. Having to make a weak aura to play around this means it is a failed design IMHO.
Suggestion, the buff automatically makes your next hunt deal 30% damage or blade dance.
Also please consider making souls not an object to be collected.
32 Likes
The Aldrachi tree seems amazing for Havoc but incredibly weak for vengeance. I seriously hope there is another tree coming for DH that is more aligned for vengeance.
3 Likes
As long as the current 2p/4p get reworked as talents â this is fantastic!
1 Like
This is kind of forcing our hand even more to play the warglaive tree.
This current tree is fury starved and momentum/inertia is not fun.
Stop trying to make it a thing.
19 Likes
Itâs really, really, really bad. Like look at the DK/WW/Warlock trees, theyâre all so cool and just add to the gameplay. We get tiny little damage amps for a few seconds and a rotation thatâs going to be locked in and required to min max to do any damage. Like you somehow made DH even harder to play, which is mind boggling.
PLEASE HIRE ME, I WILL DO IT FOR FREE, make something with marks, dots, explosive demonic nukes, idc just make it fun man, tiny damage amps that you have to do a helldivers combo just to activate are not fun.
11 Likes
This looks like the most absolute boring class to play if youâre looking for a class fantasy experience. This is basically throw glaive to win, which is interesting for a melee ranged dps class. While I wish I could make suggestions, most of my ideas are better suited for a Chaos build. However, Throwing Glaive as the iconic ability for Demon Hunters is really sad. Even big daddy Illidan on used the ability once per (complete) fight. Kinda shows that Blizzard REALLY doesnât know what to do with Demon Hunters to make them be unique and showcase class fantasy especially if this is the end result.
DKs get the 4 horseman, Monks get to hit the Avatar state, Shamans get Ancestors to squad up, and Demon Hunters get to do the EXACT same thing theyâve been doing but with extra burr. Disappointing.
18 Likes
Love the fantasy. Letâs lean more into Demon Hunters being masters of the glaive, itâs our iconic weapon. I like the combo strikes aspect a lot. I donât feel like this leans into Shattered Souls as much as I imagined it would, when I just saw the name, but Iâm not dissatisfied.
Primary points of concern:
- What happens if we consume 4 Shattered Souls before using Reaverâs Glaive? Is the fourth soul munched? Are there plans for QOL around the methods we pick up souls to reduce potential frustration?
- I donât like the idea of the activator being tied to/based on Throw Glaive. This is contingent on the animation of the ability-- I want to look cool, of course. Everyone does. Throw Glaive isnât very high on the list of abilities that I think look cool. A cool spell effect would nullify this concern.
- Partially tied into the above, will these hero talents lock us into choosing Throw Glaive/Soulscar talents purely for talent point efficiency? Already feel like our class fantasy is unceremoniously crammed into our spec tree, would prefer to not be locked into an aspect of that identity based on Hero Talent choice.
- Abundance of damage windows are definitely an issue, but more of a Havoc-specific one. Within that, Reaverâs Glaive wonât overtake EssB as the primary driver of those damage windows, which feels backwards. Shouldnât a full suite of Hero Talents carry more gravity than a single regular talent?
5 Likes
veng perspective. i have more questions regarding how some talents work.
- art of the glaive, are these 3 soul cleave hits uncapped? or does it make soul cleave hit 8 targets instead of 5
- the lack of spiritbomb synergy, is there plans to make spiritbomb replace soul cleave? or not?
3)will throw glaive be buffed to competitive levels for vengeance?
if these three things are answered/fixed then im fine with this tree
This is clearly doubling down on the short-duration, precise sequences. While I do enjoy the gameplay, it seems more thematically appropriate for, say an Arms Warrior, rather than DH which has generally had one of the easier rotations.
Will we have a consistent way of consuming souls as Havoc other than ârun through them?â
Unhindered Assault (Felblade Reset on Vengeful Retreat) is legit awesome.
Presumably Reaverâs Glaive is going to be improved by talents that improve Glaive Toss? Because it seems to me that amping Chaos Strike AND Glaive in the same build cuts across purposes when it comes to Fury usage. Without the current tier set, Glaive builds arenât using Chaos Strike all that much.
2 Likes
Thematically the extension of the current Havoc tierset seems cool. Mechanically, however, I have concerns over the generation and tracking of soul fragments (more for Havoc than Vengeance, as Vengeance can more reliably generate them on demand where Havoc cannot).
Both specs have been reworked in DF, for the better, IMO. The more complex things that Havoc in particular can do when specced into Inertia feel really rewarding when pulled off correctly - but in many cases to do so correctly one has to:
- Align cooldown usage properly
- Pool fury properly to enter burst windows with fury to spend on hard hitting abilities, rather than generators
- Perform split second fight mechanic assessments and solve geometry problems for where to safely VR towards, and then FR back into the fight
While also contending with any number of other things going on in the fight:
- Spatial concerns outside the aforementioned VR/FR. Maybe you can execute an inertia window properly in that window, but upcoming mechanics to avoid may further complicate where you want to wind up, or where youâll need to be soon after.
- General fight mechanic concerns (including but not limited to silences, stuns, moves-that-need-to-be-line-of-sighted, switching to priority adds, etc)
- Kicking / stopping important spells and abilities
- Being aware of your own health and defensive status, juggling usage as necessary
- Communicating with your teammates (calling kicks, stops, raid calls, etc)
Now, granted, a lot of the above applies to nearly every spec and role, and still, I feel that the increased complexity that Havoc has gotten over the course of DF, especially with Inertia - we just⌠donât need more cognitive load (or even weak aura/addon load) when we consider that RIGHT NOW, the tierset just works. You press Blade Dance? Cool, hereâs some extra glaives! You pressed Blade Dance while you had at least 1 charge of glaive? Even better, hereâs some extra damage/glaives!
The additional enhancements to Blade Dance and Chaos Strike (and their Vengeance counterparts) sounds fun, and there will already be some amount of tracking (via addons or otherwise) to ensure that those talents are played well. But⌠adding the soul absorption as a component to activate these just feels like one step too far, to me.
7 Likes
From havoc perspective.
The hero talents themselves are pretty underwhelming. More throw glaive stuff, tiny dmg buff windows, some minor damage amps. The only thing I liked was the hunt cd reduce in hopes that it stacks with our tier and any extra fury generation.
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Throw glaive - honestly surprised this ability got so much focus this xpac. It felt like such a weak filler ranged ability. If you want DH to have such a focus on throw glaive, give us a 3rd spec that is ranged.
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Fel Rush / inertia - mixed feeling here, I like unbound chaos and making your fel rush do big damage. Unfortunately that focus has shifted away from big damage and instead fel rush is just for the inertia damage buff window and the damage is a side note.
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Fury starved - demon blades is basically the only choice otherwise itâs extremely clunky using the generator. We also are forced into crit/mastery based on talents so we fall short on haste. Idk if the lack of haste or demon blade interaction is the sole root of our fury issues but at times it does feel extremely dry.
13 Likes
Not against this thematically, but the blade-play element needs to be more clearly expressed.
As others have said, feels like Vengeance is an afterthought here which is weird since the Aldrachi were first teased through VDHâs artifact weaponâŚ
Assuming the other hero tree will be leaning in hard to demon/chaos side of things, Iâd like to see Reaver give VDH something interesting and equally thematic. If the theme is bladeplay, let us do badass swordmaster things and get tank rewards for it.
Let us feel like weâre a demon of the blade, whisking across the battlefield and parrying things - but ideally through active play rather than âhereâs a 5% parry buffâ. Heck, let us use blade dance and add back in a (maybe not 100% lol) dodge buff to it.
On that note, throw glaive is maybe not the most interesting spell to focus on. It can pass muster if designed well, but jeez. Reaverâs Glaive could be so much cooler - make it a Whirlwind/Blade Dance animation on soul-infused steroids. Absorbing souls to then spin out in a powerful flurry of blades that then also empowers your bladeplay and makes you a parry god? Yessir, Iâll take 10.
At a bare minimum please donât have Reaverâs Glaive replace Throw Glaive. Let it be an empowered transformation - youâre taking away a massive quality of life button for VDH in pulling mobs, and kinda gimping Havocâs Bloodlet builds pretty hard.
All of the above applies to Havoc too, tbh. The other Hero tree can represent the fel demon aspects of DH, let this one encapsulate the agile technique-focussed side of the class, with a soul twist to meet the Aldrachi theme.
4 Likes
good grief yall (blizz). you really want us out here throwing glaives huh? despite how many times people say they donât think its either a) enjoyable or b) in any way related to the âcoolâ of being a demon hunter.
i mean you even invented this talent âglaive tempestâ that is actually kind of cool. its reminiscent of the Legion artifact weapon ability. it is actually good but its also about the most glaive related button i want to press. just glaive tempest 3 times a minute or so, and iâm good thanks.
you people (blizz) donât even know how to get people to play the game like you seem to want. you always forcing them to do the most unfun things, and you always make those things, that you force on players, as un-fun as possible. all you had to do to get people to enjoy torghast, was allow them to obtain 1 high item-level epic item per week from there. thatâs it. and you would have seen drastically different sentiment about the entire damn thing. instead, you took the L hard. you heated it and re-heated it, and choked that torghast L down at blizz offices with tears in your eyes. âMMM mmmm nom nom, this choreghast nightmare was definitely⌠om nom nomnom⌠one of teh most important design lessons of my lilfeâŚ(swallows while crying).â
but the answer was so simple. do torghast, get gear. easy W.
just like here, if you really want people to enjoy using throw glaive, this ability almost all DH hate to use, make it generate fury. HUGE AMOUNTS OF FURY. EASY FIX, EASY W, AND SO CLEARLY YOU WONT DO IT
12 Likes
Kinda just forced to play throw glaive and without the tier set for it, it seems unfun to do
10 Likes
âŚAre you okay??
I like your fan fiction post. Good Take 
This is probably going to be an unpopular take, but I donât like that thereâs a choice node where both choices require the use of Vengeful Retreat (Evasive Action/Unhindered Assault). I donât raid with Demon Hunter anymore, so itâs probably a bit different if you do, but I donât take Vengeful Retreat as Vengeance (and wouldnât as Havoc either if it wasnât literally forced). I would much prefer to see something from Unhindered Assault that focuses just on Felblade.
I actually donât mind the glaive throwing either, so I guess unpopular opinion all around.
1 Like
Gonna keep it real with you chiefs. Having the entire feedback for Dragonflight be that dh has way too many low duration damage amps / buffs just for you guys to turn around and make an entire hero talent set revolve around another low duration damage amp is insane.
Not to mention souls are the worst mechanic in the game by far and havoc has no way to track them whatsoever
21 Likes
Another damn short duration debuff we need to plan around. Initiative (5 sec) Unbound Chaos (12 sec) Inertia (5 sec) Essence Break (4 sec) and the regular spells to weave in-between, and now weâre getting another 5 second second debuff to watch? Not to mention the inevitable watching for 3 charges before using throw glaive to ensure itâs going to be the enhanced version, and watching another buff now with Thrill of the Fight.
Regardless on whether Iâm bad at the game or not, Iâm exhausted from staring at buffs waiting for them to align before using spells, and this tree isnât even interesting.
Itâs either the changes are making the class more annoying to play because itâs adding another frustrating-to-use mechanic, or your rotation shouldnât change at all and therefore itâs a boring tree that doesnât enhance the gameplay.
20 Likes