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Relentless Strikes now generates 4 Energy per combo point spent on finishing moves (was 5 Energy).
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Shadowcraft no longer stores 1 additional combo point. Frequency bonus from auto-attacks increased to 75% (was 40%).
- Developers’ notes: Energy and Combo Point generation during cooldown windows has often been overflowing. These reductions aim to reduce circumstances of over-capping resources while maintaining potent relative generation in those windows.
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Lingering Shadow now also applies to Shuriken Storm.
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Shadow Dance’s tooltip has been updated to include its threat reduction effect.
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Apex Talent: Ancient Arts now considers the total damage of Secret Technique when creating a shadow clone, instead of only its initial hit.
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Fixed an issue that caused Secret Technique damage from secondary hits to be attributed to summoned pets instead of the attacking Rogue.
Is this a joke? they are changing completly some specs and THIS is the change to sub rogue?
4 Likes
Yea all of the rogue updates are underwhelming by a lot. It isn’t just sub. Assassination needs to be looked at and changed IMO.
3 Likes
Genuinely amusing that you listed a bunch of minor changes when the real mess is a tier set that will revolve around backstab. Hopefully the dev is paying attention to the rogue discord because WTF are they smoking.
The spec’s CDs will be even more misaligned and moving damage out of shadow dance and to outside of it completely misunderstands what the spec actually does and should do.
I’m willing to bet the tier will be changed and there will be further changes because this ain’t it.
3 Likes
inb4 Mafic.
Seriously though, the tier set is…i don’t know what that is, I guess that’s their answer to “more dps in downtime”. Make the filler stuff just do double damage lol.
I’m curious what the net gain/loss for Shadowcraft and Relentless Strikes is going to feel like. Feels negative to me, but that 70% may balance it out?
I like how blizzards response to “resource overflow” is to nerf it during cooldowns while making resources worse in downtime by not compensating.
Sigh
5 Likes
We need more energy as Sub and they nerf our energy regen out of everything. Why is it so hard to move Vigor talent to mid tree? And we need new pvp talent or give us back Sprint remove root and suppress slow for first 4s old pvp talent.
1 Like
These are changes that should have taken place in beta. Rogue is the redhead stepchild. It’s astounding.
I’m dooming.
3 Likes
It only took them 6 months to fix secret technique apex sync!
What I wouldn’t give to hire a chud as our exclusive class dev. Blue hair dye is not compatible.
2 Likes
Wonder if the sub 4 set meant to say lingering shadow and not darkness. Weird if it forces hero tree choice.
1 Like
I’m convinced the class devs have a wild vendetta against rogues as a whole. These changes not only force sub to play Deathstalker, but actively gut the flow of play.
2 Likes
Hilarious changes. This clearly shows that someone who has never ridden a bike should not try to construct one.
Unfortunately, the people behind these changes show their clear lack of knowledge how the spec plays in their own created content. Just sad to watch.
I was so upset that i didnt even looked at the tier set…. its HORRIBLE.
To be honest they have been trying to shift Sub away from Trickster for some time since TWW. They have thrown some token buffs to Sub Trickster sprinkled in for a bit but I truly believe that they want Sub to be primarily focusing on Deathstalker and Outlaw on Fatebound. Trickster for Sub and Outlaw has been the most in flux of all hero trees and arguably across all other classes and specs.
Given that reason I suspect they want to funnel players to hero trees that simply work better for balance reasons IMO.
The problem is they’re not designing the rest of the game to flow around deathstalker. There’s next to zero content where it’s beneficial as a whole to focus on a single target at a time and moving away from that marked target is an absurd hinderance. Especially in pve content, you are a net negative to your group by sitting on a single target the whole time.
So by forcing sub into the narrow deathstalker and away from the fully adaptable trickster, Blizzard forcing us to play something else entirely. Be it a different spec, class, or an entirely different game.
1 Like
Each rogue spec has its archetype hero tree with an option to choose the hero tree from another spec:
Assa: Deathstalker (archetype), Fatebound-option (Outlaw archetype)
Outlaw: Fatebound (archetype), Trickster-option (Sub archetype)
Subtlety: Trickster (archetype), Deathstalker-option (Assa archetype)
I have no issues with Blizzard wanting Deathstalker to be a comparable option to Trickster-Sub but with the planned changes they are basically forcing the Assa archetype on Sub. I have issues with that since Deathstalker had various, even severe, gameplay problems for both Assa and Sub since it was introduced. The whole Deathstalker concept is not very well designed and they try to bandaid it over and over again instead of accepting it to be a flawed design and re-design it.
So what else is bad with the Sub changes in 12.1?
- Taking away Sub’s last niche (burst) with the nerfs to Shadowcraft and Relentless Strikes
- The 4p bonus leads to the situation where we will Shadow Dance back to back even outside Shadow Blades windows - > this will de-sync our CDs so that we can’t align Shadow Dance with Secret Technique anymore for more dmg.
- Apex procs during SD/SecTec windows will be much less often leading to the question why Blizzard designed them as a gameplay cornerstone in the first place when they now try to keep us from getting them with the new changes.
- 4p Lingering Shadow: An outright bad talent that no-one in his/her right mind played. Instead of designing a good talent Blizzard doubles down on it forcing it on players through the 4p. What a lazy design choice.
3 Likes
Well they are balancing around Rogues being a pure DPS class and that is what they believe Rogues should be. But in the process they want to tax Rogues ability to do anything in multi target situations. In comparison many hybrids no longer have that tax due to their utility but can provide comparable single target DPS and multi target DPS that exceeds Rogues in many situations. Until the devs decide that Rogues should be able to pump damage in multi target situations that can compete with hybrids that is the stalemate in design right now.
It’s not even a stalemate, it’s a fundamentally broken system. There’s no longer any form of hybrid tax, so forcing rogues to play in a style of system that’s no longer applicable is only a hinderance. We don’t do top damage, in fact far from it. We don’t bring anything to raid and that 4% damage reduction only applies to what we are hitting and spells/abilities from them. Any environmental damage doesn’t count, so we’re worthless in many pve cases.
We are already behind as a whole and these changes are making us worse. There’s nothing redeemable about what they’re doing to sub, it’s all objectively terrible decisions and destroying the spec for pve.
1 Like
The WoW team seems intent on Rogues having a certain niche for PVE and until they broaden the scope of Rogue design that leads to a stalemate.
Rogue community feels the multi target tax is out of place when hybrids no longer have a single target or multi target tax and they have more utility.
For Sub changes specifically I think we already saw this coming in beta because just like Legion they had a hard time balancing around Sub’s high uptime with shadow dance and now are doing the flattening of the damage profile…again.
Maybe I and a select few others are purists but what we believe is that Shadow Dance should be a meaningful CD again and not something that can be spammed.
SD was spammed in early Legion and led to a flat damage profile and outside of SD it felt even worse.
I and others have argued that to improve Sub you need to improve Sub’s ability to have a stable DPS profile outside of Dance. And Dance to be the meaningful burst that it is meant to be.
Blizzard is probably afraid rogues would be the only melee dps that’d be accepted if they give it too much. All the other melee are specs of hybrids.
God forbid ret paladins do less dps than a pure dps class.
3 Likes
Once again, rogues provides nothing for the groups that any other class can do, as Atrophic Poison, for example, just don’t work for everything like environmental damage from bosses. Once again, Blizzard thinks that the only issue with rogues are the numbers and not the core/design of the specs. Assa has so many moments without energy if you don’t pool it that’s just boring to see. Outlaw AoE still target capped when every other class just do less damage if there is more than X targets (outlaw simply don’t do the damage if there’s more than it’s target cap). Also Outlaw has so many bad design decisions, with the RNG damage playstyle STILL EXISTING in this spec. It’s that hard to just go to the pirate with some cool effects, canon shoots, even “crew-oriented” buffs, or really invest in the cheater side of the spec, anything? T7 is underwhelming too and changes nothing.
Rogue devs (if any) simply don’t know what they are doing and don’t even play with the class to see all these issues, and the actual rogue players will only decrease even more again.
1 Like
Why the eff are they messing with energy and combo points for Sub it literally is the only rogue spec that feels smooth to play atm in terms of energy and combo points.
Sub literally should be completely overflowing with energy and combo points in dance windows because the entire spec revolves around doing damage in those windows.
If the change also results in a net reduction in ancient art procs that is going to be a huge L
Also why is the 2 set bonus tailored around backstab ??? That literally goes against how the current iteration of Sub is designed especially for PvP.
2 Likes