11.X Class Rework

Classes Rogue
1

Reserved for future use for the mid-expansion rework.

In the meantime, please feel free to recommend changes to the current state of rogues in support of the rework.

6 Likes
2

Lets start with the easy stuff.

General class talent tree:

Shadowheart talent redesigned: Leech increased by X% when using major CDs (Shadow Dance, AR, Deathmark).

The drawback with this suggestion is that Sub and Outlaw gain more benefit from this than Assassination. But Assassination does benefit more from Leeching poison.

Improved Wound Poison and Superior Mixture need to be combined.

Rushed set up energy discount increased from 20% to 40%.

Acrobatic Strikes takes too long to stack and doesn’t last long enough. Two suggestions: Reduce the amount it takes to build the stacks by 50% OR increase the duration of damage and speed bonus from 3 seconds to 6 seconds.

Tight spender reduces energy cost of finishers by 10%

Leeching poison increases leech by 5%.

Alacrity should be one talent point. Same with Lethality talent.

Thistle Tea should increase your highest secondary stat instead of mastery alone.

Cold Blood should do a mirror attack of your crit attack with pure shadow damage.

Deeper Strategem should also increase the CP generation of your next CP builder for 3 seconds.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

1 Like
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Bold of you to assume there will be another one.

Personally I just don’t really think sin even needs a rework. The DF rework was pretty good. Some adjustments and fixes here and there, but really the attention should be funneled into sub and outlaw. Sin is fun and feels great.

5 Likes
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Sub isn’t that bad. Assassination does need work.

But yes most agree that Outlaw is the worst right now.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

4 Likes
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I just want to talk to the person who is in charge of Rogue

7 Likes
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Want to buy Sinister Strike combo point buff :sob: .

1 Like
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Oh there will be. At the very least for the rogue hero talents which they so obviously deprioritized then ran out of time on. Also, there wasn’t a single class that even came close to the lack of changes that rogues had.

As far as the specs themselves, I think Assassination is in an OK place though the spec tree needs some kind of lower value passive defensive, Deathmark has some pretty huge issues in PVP, and the reliance on stealth for spreading bleeds is annoying. Overall though, I think assassination and sub are in an OK place but could use a quick design pass around the edges.

Having said that, outlaw is currently an absolute mess of a playstyle. The spec is a bunch of weird design choices, way too much plate juggling for it’s APM, KS just needing to just be something different, and an AoE cap significantly happering its value. Outlaw needs a serious design pass or just a complete overhaul at this point.

And finally the hero talents which are at best uninspired/forgettable and at worst actively annoying and counterintuitive gameplay. Full design pass on these.

5 Likes
8

I’m sure I can find an empty room near you for you to scream in. That would provide you the same experience.

5 Likes
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Here are my suggestions for the Class tree and the Assa tree, bear in mind they are predicated on removing useless talents and moving talents around:

If you wish to see how the trees would look, you can do so here:

https://imgur.com/a/HOVGeEC

Class Tree

  1. Control is King in the Class Tree
  2. Echoing Reprimand - Deals damage and your next 2 finishing moves deal damage as if they consumed 7 CP
  3. Cold Blood / Marked for Death choice node, both 1 minute CDs
  4. OG Soothing Darkness - 1% heal / second while Stealth is active, in place of Recuperator
  5. Alacrity - Combo point generating abilities increase the damage of your next finishing move by 10%, stacking up to 5 times
  6. Recuperator - Heal for 1% HP and restore 5 energy every 3 seconds while SnD is active - replace Tea with this.
  7. Death From Above in the class tree - Replaces Evis/Envenom/Dispatch, 10% increased damage, only jumps if the target is out of range
  8. Stillshroud - 50% reduced Shroud of Concealment CD and reduces damage by 10% in its area for 10 seconds after it breaks
  9. Cloaked in Shadows - 15% HP shield for 5 seconds after gaining Vanish, in place of Soothing Darkness.
  10. Improved Wound Poison choice node with Hemotoxin
  11. Drink Up Me Hearties in the Class Tree
  12. Deadly Throw added.

Assassination Tree

  1. Venomous Wounds - buffed to 10 energy
  2. Sanguine Blades - Consumes an extra 5 energy for 100% duplicated damage
  3. Improved Poisons + Fatal Concoction Combined in 1 talent
  4. Thrown Precision - Also increases Poison Knife damage by 200%
  5. Lightweight Shiv + Tiny Toxic Blade Combined in 1 talent
  6. Twist the Knife - 2 extra seconds on Envenom and Shiv
  7. Doomblade - 20% extra bleed damage over 8 seconds and Critical Strikes refund 5 Energy. Affects Mutilate, Ambush and Fan of Knives
  8. Dashing Scoundrel - Envenom increases poison application chance by an additional 10%, increases the critical strike chance of poisons by 5% and their critical strikes generate 1 Energy
  9. System Shock in the Assa tree - Casting Envenom on a target affected by Garrote, Rupture and Lethal Poison deals 10% increased damage and reduces movement speed by 90 for 2 seconds
  10. Vicious Venoms - Also applies to Poison Knife
  11. Indiscriminate Carnage - Gain 1 stack every 5 seconds, max 5 stacks. Each stack allows Garrote and Rupture to spread to 1 additional enemy within 8 yards. Stealth increase stack gain rate by 100%, Vanish instantly grants 5 stacks
  12. Sepsis back in the Assa Tree
  13. Iron Wire / Creeping Venom choice node
  14. Intent to Kill / Second charge on Cloak of Shadows choice node, remove the extra 2 second duration increasing talent from Deathstalker

New PvP Talents:

  1. Deathmark lasts 4 additional seconds and if it is dispelled the CD is reduced by 90 seconds
  2. Kidney Shot and Cheap Shot durations increased by 1 second
6 Likes
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Seems like a Subtlety effect. I would prefer something closer to Unceasing Chain Link, that provides respectable stable damage to the generator instead.

2 Likes
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it would actually be worst for sub, especially during shadow blades, since they only use 1 generator before a finisher
i thought about this as being something that takes the stink off when you need to spam generators
whether mutilate only granting two CP, or FoK not critting, or when you are spamming backstab or poison knife/shuriken toss

1 Like
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You also run the risk of needing to do things like sit on CPs in SecTec or Rupture re-ups, to snapshot the highest bonus.

If limited to Env/Evi, it’s still ~2 Muts worth of bonus, and spending to not overcap means losing the bigger bump on maximum combo points. Maybe it promotes spending at max points but the energy and CP “loss” would be pretty substantial, esp on Env uptime.

(@Allegra, no idea why the post replied to myself. I must have misclicked.)

Also, I am Outlaw-minded. There are a lot of windows and amplitude mods to overall damage already. I am curious what can be done to increase the low-points too (generator stretches), without feeding back into a spiky profile.

2 Likes
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depending on the numbers, there would probably be a breaking point where it would be acceptable to overcap by 1 CP or so, as it would net a higher damage
however, it would never be worth it to spam generators and totally ignore CPs, just to get the stacks up, even for hard hitting finishers. a 50% buff to rupture instead of a 20% buff to rupture cannot be worth 2 envenoms, surely.

probably something like"using the same generator increases it’s damage by x %, stacking"
you can’t get to high enough stacks to just spam generators, but if you have to backstab or sinister strike 4 times in a row, at least they hit harder and harder.

2 Likes
14

Give rogues weapons choice back daggers can still be off hands due to their speed but why do we lock them into them? Thats like saying ret is only 2 handed maces or shaman is only duel maces. Or atleast open up the transmog options.

3 Likes
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Sprint is useless trash: Nearly every single class in the game has a slow. Previously Sprint would give a few seconds of slow and snare immunity. NOPE. Gone.

Marked For Death: Just gone. Pathetic. It was there for a long enough time that it needed to stay. End of story.

Feint is now pretty much useless garbage as well: Minus-ing off only some AOE damage instead of a total flat % of All damage taken? LOL nice joke. So yeah, there’s that.

Burst has been heavily reduced: Not dealing as much damage as everyone else is sad. Look at feral and DK burst.

Last but definitely not least, there is a HUGE issue with balance when rogues go for re-stealth. No absorb. Not even a small one to keep that re-stealth available. You stealth and ANY DOT keeps you unstealthed. You’re invisible for 1.5 seconds. Just DoT the rogue one time and you’ll inevitably win vs them. We used to have an absorb that would help keep that in check, and give us a moment to recover. Nah, once you’re revealed, you have to stay un-stealthed the whole fight and rogues aren’t known for good sustain.

All around rogues are trash. Re-rolling mage so I can press a few buttons and watch someone drop while taking no damage and being able to teleport around.

1 Like
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You guys think way to small on rework front literally look at shaman or hunter’s rework we need beyond that scale. Rogue’s have been neglected for way longer than anyone. But it won’t happen will they do something probably but not anywhere what is needed.

Look at what has happened, They prenerfed everything on the class for pvp and put in the bare min for pve. Darkest night was nerfed from the start in beta to only be 20% in pvp, vanished nerfed for no real reason, All rogue healing nerfs left in place even with the direct nerfs they took anyway. But yet look at everything else’s burst and healing off the charts, good thing they got rogues before anything else wouldn’t want them to not be worst version of everything.

These kinds of things point to no one wants to work on rogues and the only ones that do hate them.

8 Likes
17

An improvement to Kspree is that right now to avoid being in the center of target and being cleaved you have to use Kspree at max distance but that is hard to gauge in PVE.

So what they should do is increase the range of Kspree so that way you are not on top of the target’s hit box.

But the problem remains that you can fall off a ledge or through the world when using Kspree if the target moves. A solution to that problem is the final hits shadow steps to the target with a mini speed boost like Step has.

:surfing_man: :surfing_woman:

18

Just some ideas:

  1. Change Wound Poison into a non-lethal poison, remove the damage component.
  2. Combine Master Poisoner, Improved Wound Poison, and Superior Mixture into a single talent (readjust/balance as necessary).
  3. Rework Dragon-Tempered Blades as a utility talent on the class tree that allows all rogues access to apply two different non-lethal poisons simultaneously. Remove ability to have multiple lethal poisons.
  4. Move Vigor and similar energy-related talents to a much higher position in their respective talent trees (or make those mechanics baseline… leveling a Rogue can be miserable because of energy starvation due to not having access to critical talents).
  5. Make it so that Slice and Dice is no longer a separate GCD-maintenance-only buff. Same goes for things like Roll the Bones. These maintenance buffs aren’t fun for the Rogue to juggle with.
  6. Introduce a utility talent on the class tree that increases the amount of gold pilfered via Pick Pocket, and/or increases the chance to find lock boxes, or use Pick Pocket outside of stealth, or something. Allow Rogues options to really lean into that aspect of their class fantasy.
  7. Introduce a utility talent which allows Pick Lock to work on more locked things that normally require a special key. Allow Rogues options to really lean into that aspect of their class fantasy.
  8. Rework Thistle Tea into Crimson Vial. Rebalance as necessary.
  9. Replace Shadowheart. Bonus leech during stealth is antithetical outside of perhaps Shadowdance, which only Subtlety has access to.
  10. Make Blade Flurry passive for Outlaw, or at least some sort of toggle. That leans into its class fantasy well particularly since it’s using larger weapons than either Subtlety or Assassination.
4 Likes
19

I will die on this hill: Slice and Dice needs to be a passive that activates when we use a damaging finisher.

Babysitting this buff is extremely unfun. Give it a shorter duration but make the duration depended on Combo-points spent. The shorter duration means we have to be “in the thick of it” fighting to get the buff but the automatic activation means we no longer have to “ramp up” for what is at this point baseline.

There is no two ways around it at this point but Rogue DPS is balanced around this ability always being up anyways.

Furthermore it contributes to pruning unnecessary button presses. Roll the Bones and Symbols of Death are be easier to manage if Slice and Dice is passive.

Roll the Bones is thematic (and I would argue fun) but suffers from the fact that when it’s time to DPS (raids / mythics / etc) most people hate RNG. I think ultimately people would not mind this if we addressed the real issue: Outlaw as a spec is a mess.

I suspect that one of the hang ups with the spec is that it carries so much baggage from the long dead “Combat” spec. A spec which itself was a mess and as a Rogue from the Classic era I remember it mostly as the only viable spec that you took because other wise you missed 1/4th of all your off hand attacks and you had no energy.

Nonetheless the spec was popular and is often pined for if not for it’s theme then it’s effectiveness and promotion of a particular style of play for Rogues.

I think the class fantasy that Outlaw tries to capture is that of the Swashbuckler. Go all in on that. Give us the daring, acrobatic fighter uses their wits and charm. The roster needs that kind of character.

2 Likes
20

They killed Outlaw fantasy from Legion.

It is easier to go toward a new identity because right now Outlaw has no identity!

Making SND passive is basically not going to move the needle in helping any of the specs that much as Cut to the Chase is baseline now.

The problem is that the complexity of the specs even if you factor out SND is still too high.

If Outlaw is supposed to maintain and do so many actions per minute it needs to be an elite DPS spec to reflect its level of effort.

:surfing_woman: :surfing_man:

3 Likes