For the love of all that is good. DO NOT release the new awful version of AV. Give us the original, long, amazing, multi day AVs. This is the reason I am playing Classic. This is the reason I played on private servers.
Just going to preface this as a neutral party because I know how some of the classic community responds to opposition or rather just someone questing their stance.
Why wouldn’t they have a case? If they believe it takes to long then that’s an opinion that is valid whether you agree with it or not.
Would you claim that people who want the earlier versions instead of the 1.12 version also don’t have a stance if the earlier versions play faster than they did back in the day?
Of course you wouldn’t because that would ruin your bias.
Do you think that the version given in retail was authentic? Honest question. I believe they stated numerous times (maybe not specifically referencing AV) that they want to make sure it’s as authentic as possible. If they just made up values and mob numbers I wouldn’t exactly think that’s the same thing as what you guys are asking for.
Additionally, I believe blizzard stated that they just think this is the more balanced version of AV (again not saying I agree/disagree with this that’s just what it is). So if you are going to be making any arguments that are going to mean anything at all then you need to be attacking/defending this angle of it.
It doesn’t matter if you believe or don’t believe that blizzard would take to long to make it, whether the BG goes too fast/sloW, and it doesn’t matter if you think a certain version is better/worse than another one.
If you want to make any meaningful discussions you have to talk about balance as that is what blizzard said was their reasoning for choosing that version.
The point is that if it DOESN’T take long as some are claiming, then it is not a valid case. Are you for real?
I’ve heard this from (IIRC) you a number of times in the past, and I don’t buy it. I am not a “#nochanger” for the record. Your concern troll that it would not be “authentic” if not 100% carbon copy is bupkis.
Blizzard has made many statements in the past that were horrible. (They will never make classic, RPPVP was too niche, not to mention severely underestimating demand and only having a handful of servers at launch) What they said was that it “gave them clarity”.
And I threw back at you the situation where people claim that earlier versions will make it less retailish with rushing, but if it’s still played like this then would you also say that those early advocates don’t have a valid case as well?
Why didn’t you just answer my question also asking a valid question is a troll to you? It’s just an honest question you could just answer it and move the conversation instead of just saying ‘loltroll’
This is not how this works dude you can’t just say ‘This was a bad move by blizzard because look at all these other moves they said was a bad idea’. You have to actually EXPLAIN why it is a bad move, and in relation to why they think it’s a balancing issue.
Citation for what? Them saying that they think the 1.12 version is more balanced?
What question? Were you asking if it would be acceptable if not a 100% carbon copy? Of COURSE it would.
They did not say it was for balance.
That was pretty clear. You claim they said it was for balance. Cite your source.
Lol you couldn’t have made that more obvious you know that wasn’t my question. You clearly don’t want to have a sincere conversation about this… kind of a shame.
Hmm lets see here…
They even use the word ‘balance’ as well as go into descriptions of what is changed and how they think it’s better.
I mean if you really want to argue that they don’t think it’s more balanced then sure, you go for it, you’ll just be incorrect. Idk if you are just intentionally disagreeing with everything I’m saying because I question your early AV or what but you have to at least be rational if you want people to listen.
The way you stated it sounded like “balance” was the entire reason they wanted to use 1.12. Nice to see you actually cite where they used the word.
They also said “yuck” about body parts.
Uh yeah if you read through the lines that’s basically the main reason… ‘Made improvements’ was said numerous times and if we are being honest a video game company generally makes ‘improvements’ for the sake of balance. And yeah you can use the word balance for whatever you would like, balance out the time, balance out who wins more or less, balance out npcs if they are too strong, whatever you would like to read it as.
What I was getting at with this is that you need to actually make valid, and rational points and thoughts and not the same nonsense you have been doing for years now (yikes) which is just saying stuff like, “1.12 is BAD!”. Why is it bad? Why should we have earlier versions? What’s the benefit for getting the older version? Can you actually articulate a mature thought?
Anyone without a social disorder can clearly tell this is them thinking they are being funny… did you…did you actually take this as an actual insult toward early AV?? LOL
The “improvements” were what arguably allowed the BG to become a race. Not the moving of GYs and the horde entrance cave, but rather the extreme nerfs and the removal of the majority of NPC forces. Blizzard has made it clear that they saw those nerfs and removals as “improvements”.
I would now like to remind you that blizzard’s sense and POV of “improvements” led us to the current state of retail, which MANY players are in classic to avoid.
Anyone without a social disorder could clearly tell that I made that statement thinking it was funny.
Their preliminary decision for 1.12 AV is on a level of “you think you do, but you don’t” attitude of blizzard. This thread has how many likes? Compared to how many likes for the 1.12 AV announcement thread?
Okay so after removing the nonsense from this post, I gather your issue is the ‘race’ part of it. Correct? Is that basically your main issue with it?
They never once said they thought more people wanted 1.12 AV and they never once suggested that no one wants the early one.
This is the type of nonsense I am talking about.
Stick to the facts, post rational thoughts, stop just posting crying and whining it makes it REALLY hard to be on your side.
My issue is not that generic. My issue is that the entire BG was gutted, removing the neccessity of completing objectives, gathring resources, upgrading units, summoning calvary, wingriders, removal of shredder, removal of large portions of map, making the contributions that non L60s could make less accessible in the time the BG lasted.
The “race” was the largest result, but not the only downside of blizzard’s “improvements”.
Obviously, but all of that can be narrowed down to the rush, without the rush these events happen so you don’t like the rush. If a rush happens these don’t happen.
So now I have to ask. Because you said ‘People who say the BG takes too long have no valid argument anymore if it’s played just like the 1.12 version’, then why would you think it still makes your argument any more valid than theirs?
If the reason you hate 1.12 AV is because these things are removed and the BG becomes a race, but the older version is going to play almost the exact same way… then you should also have no valid argument given your own logic.
And just to clarify I’M not saying you don’t, I’m using YOUR logic you threw at others against you as it works both ways.
My point is that the (non-balance) “improvements” are what created the race, and the race destroyed the rest of the meaningful content of the BG. So I guess if you look at it that way: yes, the race that resulted from the gutting is the issue.
Because if the rush still happens the thing they complained about would no longer be there (it taking too long). How are you not getting that?
I again point to the argument that I (and others) have, in that the elements that were nerfed and removed would make the race less likely if they existed again and at full strength.
I personally believe that the return and strength of the content would result in less of a race in classic.
The main difference is that I am fighting to return to more content, while they were fighting for less content.
I understand that. I’m throwing that logic back at YOUR argument as to why we should have an earlier version dude. If YOUR reasoning for having the earlier versions are because the newer versions skip all those quests/mines/mobs you make etc, but the early version DOESN’T get played out like this resulting in the scenario we are talking about where they don’t last very long. Then by YOUR own logic, you don’t have an argument to stand on anymore.
Okay so if you are going to be on the side of the fence where you think the AV WILL last longer because of the changes and they are played out like this, then you can’t say that the people stating that the early versions last too long don’t have an argument.
See now you’re flip flopping. You say the earlier version doesn’t take as long so they have no argument but now you’re saying you think it will make the bgs last longer. You have clearly stated that you think it will take longer now, so the statement
Is now invalid, because you straight up admitted yourself that you believe it would take longer.
First of all it’s not ‘more’ content it’s just a different version of the same bg. It’s not an addition of a new bg, it’s not even unlocking new items or anything at all. It’s just simply a different version.
Regardless of that point, what does this have to do with anything? Now you’re saying the main reason your fighting for this and how you think people who want 1.12 are wrong, is because you think its more content?
You are all over the place my dude. What is the reason you’re dying on the early av hill? Is it ‘more’ content or is it because you think it’s better? You are making this very silly
I never said that it doesn’t take as long. I was responding to someone else who said that would be the case. What I was saying was that IF it doesn’t take as long, than the argument that they would take too long was nullified.
I have consistently and repeatedly stated this as my position.
Seriously? Are you really going to say that the move and then removal of Korrak, the removal of Shredder, the removal of the Syndicate, were not removal of content? Removal of the majority and the nerfing of the remainder of the faction forces was not removal of content? The removal of entire sections of the map were not content removed?
The content served a purpose, both as speed bumps that allowed PVP to happen organically as it does in the open world, as well as mechanics to utilize the map objectives to move the BG along. You keep trying to make it about one specific thing, yet it was a slew of things that had meaning that were lost.
Those things are not mutually exclusive. You are so obviously trying to pin me down on one aspect of the discussion, perhaps to score a gotcha. My POV of AV sadly for you, cannot be minimized into a soundbite bumpersticker.
What exactly is your POV of AV? Do you actually have one, or are you just in here to be argumentative?
And then I said if thats the case, then your argument is also invalid. Do you understand that?
You for sure were giving hints that it wouldn’t when you suggested others arguments were no longer valid because it didn’t take as long.
Even though this argument is COMPLETELY irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with what we were discussing, yes I would argue that it isn’t content. Do you think the addition of a timer in WSG is content? Because you have to put them in the same category.
Yes I understand this logic and I am not arguing against it specifically. And I’m not attempting to narrow it down to one single instance, I am attempting to tell you that these things are ignored when there is a certain style of gameplay that is happening and even if you put those things in there, it isn’t going to change a thing and you’ll run into the very reason YOU hate 1.12 even with the earlier versions if people simply choose to not do them.
No I’m not, you said yourself, ‘I hate 1.12 because of (insert reason here)’ and then say ‘the main difference is (insert different thing here’. If I ask you a question like why you hate 1.12 or why you want an earlier version and you leave out stuff like this and switch it later on in the conversation then it comes off as flip flopping.
We were discussing one topic (balance/time), and you took it to a completely different case that’s irrelevant to our conversation.
I wouldn’t expect it to be, but I also expect you to carry on a meaningful conversation and give solid points as to why early AV is better if you are CLEARLY this big of an advocate for it. I just like to hear your reasoning and all I hear is either your emotions on how you feel or just a whole bunch of biased level flip flopping.
I’m not being argumentative exactly I’m just poking at you to get an actual REASON why it’s better to maybe discuss it more. My PoV of AV is this…
I love both versions of AV. I believe they both have their upsides and their downsides. I think if the meta is going to be a rush one, then the version of AV honestly doesn’t matter at all as a rush generally makes it so the other team gets wiped before you really deal with the NPCs anyway. Even if 1.12 made the rush thing a meta doesn’t mean that meta isn’t going to also be in the earlier versions.
Honestly, even if they chose to go with the early version of AV for all of classic I would be okay with it. As I don’t really have a massive preference for one or the other.
The reason I post in here is because generally speaking the people who want 1.12 AV will straight up tell you facts and the truth whether you disagree with them or not, and it just seems like most ‘early’ version AVers just sort of spout of half truths or just nonsense in defense of their idea.
If someone from the 1.12 version said something like ‘EARLY AV IS BAD CUZ IT’S NOT TRUE VANILLA’ I would also be poking at him asking him what on earth makes him think that because it’s obviously not true. But I haven’t heard anyone say something like that on the 1.12 side, only on the early version side.
I came back to Classic because I detest what has happened to WoW in Retail - not the game I signed up for. I especially came back to play in the original AV, which I loved and spent most of my time in. PLEASE don’t ruin Classic by giving us the garbage that is 1.12 AV. If we don’t get original AV I don’t see any point in sticking around once I make 60. That’s the whole reason I stuck around before.
OK, I am stopping right here to respond before I read the rest of your exchange, because it’s frustrating to see how thick you are in getting his point.
Unintelligent people are claiming that the earlier patches wouldn’t take any longer because players would figure out how to run an inferior zerg regardless of the patch. They’re implying that Brokenwind, other players of superior quality, and me would not get what we want - long epic battles - even if we did get an earlier patch.
I know this is untrue. Brokenwind knows it’s untrue. So those who really believe that 1.12 is preferable must have a reason for that preference. If they truly believe that earlier patches won’t be any slower, then what is that reason? It can’t be a preference for faster games according to them.
Both Brokenwind and I know that the older patches take longer to play and they are better for that reason.
All Brokenwind is saying is that if his opponents in this debate really do think a race would be possible regardless of version - if they really do believe this risibly dumb claim - then patch chosen should be moot to them.
At the risk of repeating myself, I will state once again that Brokenwind does not believe that older patches would make a race a common occurrence.
Your self-satisfied smugness in believing that you have painted Brokenwind into a rhetorical corner is ridiculous.
You’re not half as intelligent as you deem yourself to be.
And people have given the answer, reducing the number and power of NPC’s allows for more PVP to happen if that’s how people choose to play the map.
And in reality what we’re seeing in retail even with the older version is people will still zerg if they want to regardless.