11.0.5 Protection Paladin Feedback

So, we have been for at least 2 iterations of the spec where this is a still up in the air:

  • ‘‘This is part of an effort to constrain Shield of the Righteous uptime’’: SotR is still a close to 100% uptime buff that we need to keep if we want a sliver of a chance to survive on the most mundane things related to tanking;

  • '‘We want Shield of the Righteous to feel like it makes you strong, rather than an essential component of your baseline passive survivability.’': SotR is as week as it’s has always been post Legion where it changed from being a +%DR and became +XArmor. On its own SotR doesn’t make us feel strong, in fact it’s so weak that we generally have to pair it with something else to properly tank and rotate said CDs on any meaningful content outside of Raiding;

  • ‘‘transfer some of protection paladins’ defensive power out of Shield of the Righteous and into other cooldowns and forms of mitigation’’: You haven’t done that, in fact you just nerfed our remaining toolkit right before Launch (sentinel, wog, eot, etc);

We went an entire expansion giving the benefit of the doubt to these changes, they still feel bad, Pala was played when the tier set was absolutely op or right after Paladin rework and Sanctified Plates was beyond brokenly op. That got changed shortly after and Protection Paladin went back to a slumber.

With the most recent changes to tanks right before launch (and not taking into account the missing 20% damage increase past +12 key levels btw!) prot paladin has felt worse than it has ever felt. Reduction of Rightheous protector contribuition, Consecration DR nerf, Sentinel nerf and Eye of Tyr nerf.

Not only we are weaker but the playstyle became clunky and unfun.

We don’t want another Dot on Avenger’s Shield, thats boring, irrelevant and wont make pressing it good like it once felt, when it contributed to how your class played and to the resource flow. Avenger Shield can’t go another expansion without generating Holy Power, the reasons you guys gave to remove it resulted in literally nothing, its time to bring it back because if it doesn’t accomplish your goals by any metric (feeling or factual/numbers) then there is no point but to create friction with the playerbase and hindering the fun that the spec should feel.

Its strange that it seems that the lack of understanding that Holy Power on Avenger’s Shield is not about Shield of the Righteous, as proven by data from an entire expansion, that changes nothing when it comes to it’s duration.

The problem is that the spec is build around having a resource that is required to sustain yourself (Word of Glory) and increasing the flow at which you get access to your damage reduction and/or damage windows (Righteous Protector > Avenging Wrath/Sentinel > Guardian of Ancient Kings) then, pressing spells that don’t contribute to it feels BAD, especially when you already have plenty of globals that don’t and shouldn’t (Consecration, Blessings, Cleanse, etc). But, Avenger’s Shield certainly needs to.

Btw, Protection Paladin has never felt this bad to play, both from a power and fun perspective. I’d rather Holy Power be removed entirely than keep playing with Avenger’s Shield not generating it, especially now that Word of Glory costs so much mana (you guys put all the stops in play, just forgot to add Holy power back…).

5 Likes

Yeah, I never felt like the Dragonflight intention was met.

For me, I am less interested in the raw performance of the spec (though even I am feeling like I’ve fallen behind other tanks), and more in the moment to moment gameplay - and that doesn’t feel great. Protection Paladins have always been about Avenger’s Shield, it is - by far - our most iconic ability. Half of our spec tree is dedicated to it. But it doesn’t interact with our spec’s core resource, Holy Power, so it almost always feels bad to press.

That’s been a point of frustration for me ever since AS lost its HP generation. I don’t know if giving it HP back is the only solution, but almost every global cooldown I have to make a decision: do I press the cool button my spec is known for, or do I press one of these three buttons that help me survive? And the answer tends to be the one that keeps me alive. (That’s a problem that’s only amplified by the Templar hero talents, by the way - I love Templar, but it demands I pretend just AS doesn’t exist for long periods in the fight).

I love that Protection is getting some love this patch, and the class tree has some fun things going on in it, but I worry that there has been a fundamental problem with the spec design that continues to go unaddressed, and any update just puts bandaids on top of bandaids. (And that’s not counting the unmet design directions outlined above.)

2 Likes

Exactly! Mt feelings too.

A lot of the changes to the class tree you’d rarely if ever take them as prot. Power wise we’re getting weaker defensively. Losing sentinel as well. We’re already on the weaker side defensively for higher end M+(can’t speak for raid). Just feels bad imo

2 Likes

its unbelivable how tone deaf they have been when it comes to prot paladin.

2 Likes

The only thing I don’t like with the general tree change is that I’m going to be swapping 4% haste for 4% crit.

Overall I do like the changes to the general tree. Lightforged Blessing, Lightbearer, Afterimage, and Judgement of Light gives you a decent amount of group healing. Golden path was removed, but it was pretty mediocre in its healing output anyway, and it took 2 points to max it. It’s also easier to get Consecrated Ground.

My biggest complaint about Prot atm is the single target damage is really bad. Prot overall is on the low end on tank dps in all the sims.

The more I look at the new talent tree and at the changes the more i think that blizz just wants to destroy prot pala as a whole so people don’t get too mad when when they change it into a support spec instead of a tanking spec.

2 Likes

I think, unfortunately, you are probably right. I’m guessing that’s the direction they’re going with ppal and disc, most likely.

On the same point, i think we’re all just yelling into the void at this point. The pally thread in beta had 1700+ posts, most of which were pointing out the glaring issues the spec had. Nothing changed. Even easy things like shining light wogs not costing mana. That means these problems with the spec are due to negligence or incompetence, or both. Or, its intentional, and they’re intending to take prot to a support tank spec.

If its (hopefully) just an issue of incompetence or negligence, players are, unfortunately, part of the problem. Pally is currently the most played spec at lvl 80. For a development team that does not play the game at a high level, this essentially means pally is the “best class” right now, based on the numbers. Granted, they aren’t figuring in things like class fantasy/sentimentality, etc that leads people to keep playing classes even when they’re broken. Which means that pally won’t be “failing” until they see representation drop in RWF and high m+.

So, long story short, nothing is getting fixed until 11.0.5. And, with this dev at the helm of the class, the god awful talents we’ve seen so far (auto freedom? Heal on dot removal as a capstone? Splash heal from outside sources as a capstone???) are just the beginning of the bad.

2 Likes

How tone deaf they are with the mountains of feedback on EVERY spec.

Not to say they should listen to everything. But when 100s and 1000s of people have been saying the SAME THING… time to set the ego aside and listen to your community.

1 Like

Here was I partially believing the ‘‘we didn’t listen before and was a mistake’’ and ‘‘we moved away from the mentality that we are rockstars’’

The capstones and the talent changes for 11.0.5 are absolutetly ridiculous, like if the dev doesn’t like their job ask to be swapped around, do something else. Was it an offered job because that person knowns someone higher up? Is it an intern that has no idea what they are doing? Is it a vendeta against someone that played prot pala? It’s so unbelivably bad that it could be a comedy sketch what this dev is doing tbh.

I get people wanting to play paladin this expansion, the Arathor, Anduin, there is a huge focus on the light. I want to play it too, I just refuse to play a spec that feels like a chore to play and is totally unfun.

What’s funny is the discord, which is one of the major sources Blizzard claims it listens to (much more than the forums, e.g. the Warlock discord working overtime and getting some solid changes for their class), is very positive on what they’ve seen on the 11.0.5 PTR. “Of course the talents need to be like that, it has to be a class tree for open world/pvp/pve/raid/m+!!!”

My God, I can’t think of a single player, from RWF to casual mog and pet collector, that glances at the CAPSTONE where DS removes dots to heal you, or a CAPSTONE that splashes heals to party members and thinks, “yeah, that rounds out all my PVE/PVP/casual world content needs.” I literally can think of 1 situation where you’d be happy to take that DS talent, and it’d be at the end of a 3v3 arena match or something and you gotta solo the last guy standing on the other side. Thats a tier 2 class tree talent at best, sold as a capstone. And the pally discord is happy to just let Blizz cook on this, like they still have faith something good will come of this. Absolutely wild.

1 Like

I mean, I like how the bottom of the class tree allows you path essentially however you want - I just don’t like what those paths lead to. Divine Shield consuming debuffs is a laughably useless talent, the only time it comes with any value is when there’s no healer around; I guess there’s a use case in M+ or maybe some very specific raid fights where I want to clear a bunch of debuffs but I don’t want to stay immune, so I use Divine Shield as a quick heal… but that feels extremely situational. In all other scenarios, I would rather sit tight in my immunity and let me healers top me off at a normal pace.

I kind of like the healing splashing talent - it just feels weird for a capstone to not improve my character in any way. And it’s not just capstone, so much of the bottom of the class tree is focused on other people - Holy Ritual (healing allies with Blessings), Seal of the Crusader (healing allies with auto attacks), Blessed Calling (+movement speed to allies with a Blessing), Blessing of Sacrifice choice node, Lightbearer (healing splashing capstone), Judgment of Light, and Selfless Healer. That’s fully like half the tier 3 talents not benefiting my character. I like the paladin support fantasy as much as the next guy - hell, I probably like it more than the next guy - but I can’t support anyone if I am not getting picked in groups or if I am tanking the floor because my talents leave me weak.

4 Likes

Prot paladin played moderatly well in open world content is unkillable now, if WM is off. But questing is made 3 times longer than playing Ret. We can ask for buffs to be average at tanking raid, M+, or pvp, and we should. But open world questing is not where prot shines unless it is a world boss that would squish a dps really fast.

My opinion is holy power generation feels weak. Appropriate for item level group content prot paladin feels very likely to die. If those are fixed, tremendous.

Just wanted to chime in that from a PvP standpoint prot seems to be in a much better spot given the new pvp talent and the normal rework. However it still has bugs such as queens just not working and from what I’m seeing avenging wrath isn’t allowing hammer of wrath at any percent anymore.