11.0 Mistweaver changes needed

This expansion with the return of Talent trees for Monk pointed out a blaring problem with Mistweaver, Its identity has not really been cemented ever. It has flip flopped based on play style from Punch kick to Cast fast to its current iteration.

The Dragonflight Talent trees really just pointed out that now is the time to introduce a separate 2nd healing spec for monk. It would let both of them focus on things to do and both have talents related to its own building. Splitting the tree down the middle takes a whole lot of good things away from both specs.

Giving Way of the Dragon and Way of the Crane (clearly placeholders) as talent trees would let you focus more on the specs as a whole. Talents like Faeline stomp dont feel great for Mistweaver while Sheiluns gift feels clunky for Fistweaver so split those two abilities out to their respective trees.

Each spec should have its own statue, Crane and Serpent.

Way of the Crane should Focus more on melee combat, moving away from the major things like Essence font and Renewing mists granting Rising mists and more into Cleave passive Blackout kicks healing from statue passively.

Way of the Dragon should focus more on Spreading your mists around, Renewing mists, Enveloping mists, Essence font and using Vivify to heal through them.

Since Fistweaving automatically has Mana Regen via its rotation, you could basically just make it so it doesnt require Mana Tea or gain anything from it.

While Mistweaving has a major problem by not having any kind of mana regeneration and Mana Tea should be MoP style and Regen Mana not reduce mana cost.

If you look at mistweaver as a whole its utility in raid combat is near 0, Randomly Ring of peacing an encounter is extremely rare but also satisfying, But vs Evokers and Druids they really dont have must outside of securing an area. Which has never actually been a major Mechanic within a raid encounter. Ring should remain Monk class tree while Fistweaver should gain some utility like Zen Meditation and Avert Harm (MoP Combo). Reducing an encounter to do 0 damage is really OP so i wouldnt say make it do that much but put it on the line of Paladins but a little bit stronger since its 2 major CDs. maybe 50%?

Mistweaver not being Utility like shamans Druids and priests lets you turn Mana Tea into a Semi Cooldown for starters, make it restore 25% mana to the Mistweaver but splash 5% mana to nearby healers within 100yards, maybe a 3 minute CD to start with, reduced by Crit (would need numbers played with to test).

Thunder Focus Tea should be a Mistweaver Skill while some kinda Crane themed one offers Rising sun kick a 2nd chance to proc… OR give them a passive of Rising Dawn from BFA.

I would say Rising Sun Kick should do near no damage and specs determine it gaining power. Brewmaster, Windwalker and Crane grants normal levels of Rising Sun kick as a level 1 talent (baked in not changing current talents) and Dragon recieves increased Crackling Jade Lightning Damage. This would encourage Dragon to play as a ranged and would also allow you to turn them into a Ranged caster (we have seen classifications change with Hunters from BM and Marks to Survival so this should be mandatory for the caster version to progress and feel unique).

I would not in any way want to take away from Fistweavers or Mistweavers in their current trees but offer them more options as a whole to allow them to feel better about their choices.

There are naysayers in the community that will preach that Fistweaver is the only way and that fistweaving is the only way it should be. And to that i would say, you can have it. Just dont let your choices about your playstyle dictate other peoples choices and requested playstyle.

Any other things that feel Mistweaver or Fistweaver unique let me know.

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Seperating Mistweaver into 2 specs is the only solution I can think of, it’s just the reality. There could be so much potential for mistweaving and fistweaving but sucks that Blizzard dedicates 50% of the talents to one build while the other 50% is for the other.

4 Likes

Separating MW into 2 specs is in reality probably the exact opposite of what they really should be doing.
They should be making it so you can focus on one or the other within the tree, but they need to make them both better at what the other is doing.

They can fix that by making Rising Mist baseline, maybe make soothing mist increase your damage for each channel tick, etc

IDK, they need to let you focus on making stuff better, not just making things usable within the trees. Right now you’re a spec within a spec, and they really just need to make the tree cohesive but allow you to focus in on what you want. That probably also includes making Ancient Teachings baseline and then changing the talent node to make Ancient Teachings +250% again and also apply to SKC for example. Also friggen remove the requirement to apply Ancient Teachings, Just make it always on. Yeesh, they already built mana costs into the kicks.

5 Likes

I can absolutely understand the view to split the spec in two, focussing on their strenghts and having a lot more possibilities to choose from.

But I also do think that a hybrid spec tree is what the monk healer needs. Being able to mix both as both are his elements.
It’s a good attempt of balancing out both possibilities in one tree. Unfortunately people get to feel restricted (understandably) and want to be able to better dive into their “subspec”.

Both - splitting the “subspecs” and keeping them in one tree do make sense to me.
Having the possibility to dive in or make a hybrid.

It might be too much to ask for but as both can be seen as two sides of one medal, the spec-tree could be… reworked and filled.
If the talent tree had in itself more possibilities and having these well-placed, this could fill what some see missing - more depth and possibilities when diving into either fistweaving or mistweaving.

This would probably also avoid many difficulties that come along with splitting. It needs time to balance them and make them really viable.
If they made this tree… bigger, having like one and a half specs in a more filled tree and positioned the talent possibilities well, I do believe that this would be the best solution.
Probably more or less around 1/4 of the “fistweaver tree” would be interesting for the mistweaving playstyle and vice versa.

In my opinion that would be the best solution for this situation.
If the tree consists of a high level of polarization it needs to be bigger through more talents and/or choice nodes.
Both could dive deeper in one side or have a viable hybrid. So the 3 kinds of healers could be happy (fistweaving/mistweaving/hybrid).

Or am I mistaken? If so, please let’s discuss.

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Unfortunatuely with the way the current MW talents are in Dragonflight. There is really only fistweaving and mistweaving, you can’t really build a hybrid because talents like Unison and Jade statue will never ever ever ever be taken by a Fistweaver regardless of what scenarios they are put in.

Faeline stomp? okay put out a bie aoe dps & heal… for fistweaver, got it.
Unison & Jade statue? okay soothing channel synergy… for mistweaver, got it.

You really can’t mix both of these talents together, if that were possible than that would be called a “hybrid” but that isn’t the case.

I think that’s a very bad idea. RSK should not be required, Rising Mist was never baseline to begin with. They always gave us the option for us to be able to use RSK but making that a required part of our rotation would severely gimp the caster build.

Also don’t think thats a great idea, making 2 fistweaving passives baseline sounds like just limiting play to 1 playstyle. The 250% teachings in SL was okay because there wasn’t 5 fistweaving talents last expansion.

That is like asking for disc priest to always have atonement up on party members without actually applying the buff to them.

That’s not a 1:1. Atonement isn’t capped at 1 addtl target. Not nearly the same.

Also don’t think thats a great idea, making 2 fistweaving passives baseline sounds like just limiting play to 1 playstyle. The 250% teachings in SL was okay because there wasn’t 5 fistweaving talents last expansion.[/quote]

Hard disagree.

BlockquoteI think that’s a very bad idea. RSK should not be required, Rising Mist was never baseline to begin with. They always gave us the option for us to be able to use RSK but making that a required part of our rotation would severely gimp the caster build.[/quote]

There. Is. No. Caster. Build. To use your “example” above, that’d be like a Priest never casting Smite. KICKING IS YOUR SMITE. Until they make CJL a replacement for Kicks, KICKING is your SMITE. It’s your moonfire. Your SWP. Your Crusader Strike.

Aint nobody saying “I’m a Shadow only disc priest so i only cast Mind Blast” – half their tree is SHADOW focused only now. AND THEY STILL CAST SMITE. :slight_smile:

RSK is used by both mistweavers and fistweavers, I agree but tying RSK to healing as a baseline passive would gimp the caster build.

For fistweavers, RSK is compulsory, or you are essentially missing out free teaching heals or renewing mist duration increases.

Mistweavers use RSK too, don’t get me wrong but it’s not nearly as important as for Fistweavers. Missing an RSK here and there is not going to gimp a caster build that has Unison/Statue (for example)

If teachings and rising mists were baseline, what’s the point of even having a soothing mist build if you are obligated to press RSK every 8 seconds just for an optimal healing rotation? combine that with the 8 sec cd of statue and the gcd’s involved to maintain all those buffs… that would be a complete mess for the caster build.

Unless they revert jade statue to pre-nerf, making rising mist and ancient teachings baseline would make taking unison essentially pointless LMAO.

In the current state it’s not very valuable to hybrid. For example as caster you could give up CF for AT. That way a base fistweaving tool woulb be given. That’s what I meant with repositioning (and splitting - mentioned splitting in another thread). If they made it possible to go with parts from both without giving up too much that would be nice.
Hybrid is possible but not too viable and that could be changed.

Also with some other changes to the talents, too.

I don’t think if I got you right and please don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to offend you, just understand. But this sounds like saying that you can only heal with fistweaving. There is the viable mistweaving build, that’s being called caster build.
Did you deny the fact or did you mean something different?

You did not get me right.

I’m saying the idea of “I sit in the back and channel SooM and CJL only” is not a thing.

I totally play a Tear/Unison build. But i kick things, and punch things instead of channeling soom when there’s no damage going out.

And i take both Diffusion and teachings of the monastery and Spirit of the crane.

Even when there is no damage going out, I try to keep my jade statue uptime to at least 90% that means wasting a GCD cooldown by casting SooM then immediately canceling it every 8 seconds to keep the soothing mist channel active.

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I too keep Statue rolling with canceled Soothing

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I think a lot of the issues with statue would be fixed it they reverted the 8 sec channel. I’m not sure if you played WoW before SL but remember when the channel time used to last like a minute? was great tbh

2 Likes

I won’t ever call it a caster build (which implies playing like a Priest to me), but I am definitely in the CF/ToM bucket of players.

2 Likes

Alright, thanks for clarifying.
Reading - there is no caster build - was somewhat misleading and I didn’t want anybody to fight you because of that if they got you wrong as well. My question was for a quick deflation of that situation :slight_smile:

Yes, monks are melees - the healing is range (or melee damage) which is somewhat controversial.
I do think that either build should stay close to the group/enemies. For example to just use the melee-range-interrupt or to do damage instead of being idle.
I rarely do CjL as main damage. This only happens if I am fed up from a boss or if I stay in range for baiting mechs or something.
I often stand like 5m away from enemies - far enough to easily handle with AoE attacks but close enough to jump in for damage/interrupts.
I rarely do a hybrid build and sometimes fistweaving - where of course the position is mostly in melee range for melee DPS/healing.

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Why not just add more talents to the tree to further diversify builds? Do we need separate spec trees with a bunch of talents no one takes instead of a tree with talents that both playstyles can synergize with?

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I agree with this, this is what my first post in this tgread was about, too^^
Just written in a longer kind of way.

Why do " split MW into 2 tree " people always have the worst ideas on how to do it?

Nor do they address that both styles / multiple builds use mostly the same toolkit and have the same bread and butter. Even if they split them they would still have mostly the same toolkit and spells unless they put in a TON of work to build both specs properly. At that point neither would be the same, versatile, or as fun as what we have now. Then they have to balance them both and also make them both viable so one isnt always better than the other. Not Happening.

The MW talent tree is doing great so far and has many build options that are all viable. The Class tree could use some work though.

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Talent’s overlap and can be used in multiple builds. 50/50 isn’t really true.

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