In cata they consolidated a lot of buffs IE 10 man can realistically get the same buffs as 25 man.
Hence fights in Cata are tuned the same between 10 and 25 man.
Oh sweet summer child.
I love the argument people make… 25 mans are more annoying to participate in, so they have to drop more loot, enticing people to do it.
Crazy to me people acknowledge something is unfun in a game so the apparant solution is throw rewards at it lol.
If its unfun then just let it die. Who cares if 98% of the player base does 10m? If thats what people want to do just let them do it without penalty. That’s a gamer first design.
Where did anyone say it was unfun?
Harder doesn’t mean less fun
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This is a nice man of straw you built but unfortunately it still can’t tank.
It’s not an argument of fun, it’s an argument of efficiency. People do find 25 man runs fun. However people do gravitate towards doing the most efficient content. If 10 mans became more efficient at gearing than 25 man, then why do 25 man at all?
I have to question why you think it’s okay to argue in bad faith like this. Are you so upset that you don’t have a full 10 man team in full phase 1 heroic bis that you genuinely think it’s okay to abolish another form of content for your items? Nobody who does 25 man raids is responsible for your emotions. Nor does anyone honestly care if you go into Firelands in full bis.
Killing 25 man raids is not going to magically fix loot for you. It will just make the game a worse experience for those who enjoyed the content.
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Adding 1 extra item in 10 mans wouldn’t kill 25 man raids. Having closer loot count parity back in the day didn’t and there’s no reason to think it would now.
10 mans were indeed more popular but 25 mans were still run by people who actually liked the format for whatever reason. Why are you so insistent on playing with people who don’t actually want to be there but are only there for loot?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone who actually is responsible for filling a guild roster call recruiting for a 25 man vs a 10 man more fun 
Everybodys forgetting the part where 10 mans aren’t real raids. Technically its called that but the feel of it is no more than a slightly enlarged dungeon group. 25 mans should be rewarded for being a real (compared to 10 man) raid.
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i’d be happy with just a chance at a 3rd piece of loot dropping on 10m if you do the heroic fight. the main issue my group has is that we get the same 2 pieces drop each week so even though we are killing heroic bosses that drop a bunch of upgrades they’re all getting DE’d since we have already given them out to everyone who needs it
it actually did, that’s why blizzard added loot to 25 man, they were concerned about the lack of people playing 25 mans, look at it like this.If you add an item to 10 man, it means tier bosses are 4 items/10 and regular bosses are 3/10 (40% and 30%).
40% of 25 is 10, which means 10 man is +1 item on 25 mans, 30% of is 7.5, while 25 man heroic only drops 6, which is a 1.5 item gain from doing 10 man, you would create a meta of only 10 mans and 10 man splits
A further buff to 25 man was implemented in MoP to add a 6th item to normal mode (currently 5 in normal) because of normal mode raiders preferring to run 10 mans
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We’re on the WoW general discussion forums. That’s the standard.
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This is the way.
10m Loot is atrocious.
How is it bad faith rofl. Stop using words you dont understand. You disagree with me and attack my intentions?
Efficiency isnt fun. Fun is fun. If 25 mans exist only for more loot efficiency, thats not gamer first fun design.
Put them at parity and let players vote with lockouts. Spolier: The players would kill 25m organically.
My full opinion is that grinding drops in classic isnt what anyone wants to do. We want nostalgia and to expirience progging the raids again. After 2 or 3 13/13H clears the entire team should be BIS’d out and log off until FL. Nostalgia quickly becomes a chore.
25 man raids aren’t real raids; only 40 man raids are.
Very true. Firelands 40 man version or riot.
I prefer 25 to 10 so you’re wrong.
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I know we are all making assumptions here, none of us know exactly how the discussions went back in 2010 when they were making design changes to mirror 10/25 man raid content between boss mechanics, and item drops. But it seems to me that they wanted 10 man to be more viable, instead of just a catch-up in gear for people who are trying to get into 25man raiding. If I base my argument around that assumption, then the spirit of that design change and direction would be that the rate of acquisition between 10man and 25man should be the same.
But in practice, in the beginning of a new phase with the next set of raid content, 10 and 25 man loot acquisition rate will be closer, because the more of the loot that drops will be upgrades. 10man will be at a slight disadvantage here, because they have fewer classes that use a particular armor class. But this becomes more apparent later in the phase and before the next phase release. The rate of loot acquisition becomes more and more in favor of 25man since raiders are waiting for particular pieces to drop and more loot becomes disenchanted. A 25 man raid, because the larger number of drops, will have a higher chance of having the 1 or 2 items that a particular raider would need when everyone is approaching full phase BIS. I could plot this out on a graph, and we could see the curve difference between 10 and 25 man.
If you increase the loot drops for 10man by 1 or even a 50% chance of an additional drop. Then in the very beginning of a phase, 10man will be at an advantage for loot acquisition, but it will start to equalize the further along into the phase you get, so by around week 5 or week 6, the raid wide loot acquisition will be close to equal. By week 9 ( or so), 25man will again pull far ahead when people are nearing full BIS.
For Firelands specifically, I think I estimated a few months ago in the Cata Beta forums that it will take a 25man ~8 weeks to achieve their first Dragonwrath staff. While a 10man will likely take ~10-12 weeks. Again, assuming the original intent and spirit of the design change was to make 10 man comparable to 25man, then the items that drop for the quests would also need to be adjusted. They should be adjusted anyway for both 10m and 25m due to the shortened Phase3 timeline.
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I definitely think they are going to massively increase the speed of staffs in firelands.
Players gravitate towards efficiency. Every player does this even if they think they don’t.
When 25 mans dropped 3 pieces it was a seperate loot table with higher numbers and generally better gear. See ToCG 10 man trinkets vs 25 man trinkets.
Now that they share a loot table its 1 item per 5 players.
If 10 man got to be special and have 1 item per 3 players then it immediately becomes significantly more efficient for gearing than 25 man. That imbalance of efficiency would push 25 mans into becoming 10 mans.
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It’s crazy that “10mans would have better loot if they add 1 item” keeps getting parroted and they just completely miss the point. Yes that is in theory. What happens in actuality is you get power belt as one of those drops 3 weeks in a row and d/e it every week it drops. Was getting that 3rd item beneficial to the group? No, it wasn’t. 10man will see less “targeted” gear over time compared to 25man which has a wider spread of items seen, and people who will need those items.
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