Oh thats fine. Revenge is a dish that you can never quench that hunger with but… Ketheric, Balthazar and Lorroakan got stomped, yeeted in to the void and got baned anyway.
I think thats the point, do the revenge first then tell me, hey maybe I should try something different. Like… can you imagine the Astarion and Cazadore ending scene there was trial and Cazadore walked away? It would have sucked.
BG3 did the revenge is bad and depressing for three characters, you know who they are and I don’t want to post spoilers here. But each one happened AFTER the vengeance had been achieved, then the questions and healing began for these characters. Depending on your choices of course.
I can only speak for myself but Tyrande questioning things would have been way better if the vengeance was actually carried out.
she got sentenced to community service and will be back in either next expansion or the next one.
Shouldn’t have even been a thing.
Thats fine, but I am sure many would disagree.
There is a reason why BG3 set new standards and Blizzard hasn’t in decades. Compelling story is one of them.
Tyrande, Jaina, Thrall, Eternal ones, even we didn’t stop her, funnily enough it was Jailer who didit . Would Tyrande stop Sylvanas if she worked with us? I don’t think so. Writers from the beginning planned to give her a redemption arc.
So do you think that Thrall and Grom killing Mannroth was also an example of the “dark side of revenge”? Why they didn’t wait for Jaina, Malfurion or take the whole clan with them.
Or Thrall himself fighting Garrosh. Why he didn’t take other Horde warriors to help him?
The idea was to stop a greater evil before it harmed the innocent again.
Maybe they didn’t get help because they afraid risk losing those they love, who knows?
But the whole idea is to present a epic showdown where good triumphs over evil. In the case of Tyrande’s fight, evil escaped with a smile on his face. That’s why literally no one is happy with this solution.
I never understood how Elune wanted to save Tyrande by taking her power away. After Elune turned off Moonjuice, Tyrande was defenseless, Sylvanas gained the advantage and could easily killed Tyrande, if not the sudden appearance of Ysera, who was fighting on the other side of Ardenweald moments ago. How did she know that someone would come to save her?
Thats the issue though, they could have framed it as justice, they could have framed it as vengeance but they framed it as freedom and redemption.
This is a deliberate choice by the writers and it can be written in various ways, its not set in stone like provable science like chemistry or mathematics. They chose the framing.
You speak as if this was just a natural result from completely predictable equation.
Aanything can be written in many ways, but the story of the Night Warrior was framed since the start as an extreme measure. The uplifting and justice part happened when recovering dark shore, and then they leaned into the darker aspects of vengeance later, but since the start the Night warrior was supposed to be the dark side of elune’s powers, and it makes sense it was that dark, considering the “regular” side of elune’s powers give Maiev stuff already dark like the avatar of revenge and stuff like that.
Again you understand the issue right?
We are not talking about the facts on the writer’s decision but rather their presentation, delivery and the issues associated with them.
For example how does killing Sira over and over achieve “justice in darkshore?”
Let’s separate game mechanics from whats happening in the story.
The warfront is there to represent the night elven and gilnean forces retaking darkshore, by themselves. Gaining a victory being a minor force against the Horde that was holding that area.
The event itself happens once and thats it.
I’m trying to figure what would take for something to be satisfying for you, would Tyrande doing a Mortal Kombat fatality on Sylvanas be satisfying? Should the night elves take kalimdor entirely? Destroy orgrimmar? Every Night elf on teldrassil that died resurrecting?
1.- Tyrande during the introduction of her “big power up” should had been able to kill Nathanos to show us (not tell us) her new power was indeed powerful. Blizzard could have let her kill him and have a Valkyr sacrifice her life for him. Same results with a better representation.
2.- Any sort of instance of Night Elves killing any last remant of Sylvanas loyalist in Darkshore/Ashenvale to let us know we actually won. Remember Blizzard even cut off that in game cinematic of Tyrande saying we won. We never knew any of it.
3.- Tyrande should’ve been shown to beat Sylvanas only for the Jailer to interveen in the last minute boosting her so she could escape so we could fight her later in the raid. That way we could have got a nice climax but they ended up making Elune look like a bipolar goddess.
4.- Night elves should have been removed from Stormwind a long time ago. They been living off the lands as they are almost one with nature so them being presented as homeless beggers is nonsense. And if in the books they all moved to Hyjal, Blizzard should have mentioned it or once again better show it.
those are only few examples of what you can achieve when you actually care about your writing.
My problem isn’t the over and over part.
Its the fact that it was Sira that was the target.
No problem but why no cool cinematic to celebrate the victory?
Something cool to see the Horde commander, not Sira, die in the final scene?
Horde got THREE pixar level animations we couldn’t do a couple touched up in game cinematics?
Keeping everything relatively the same without resorting to strawman bad faith arguments.
Nathanos would have been the Darkshore commander.
He would have died in the intro quest of the battleground instead of surviving and running away. He would later be rezzed and serve as the battleground’s commander.
In the shadowlands cinematic Tyrande would absolutely thrash Sylvanas. A completely one sided beat down as we see the power is literally killing her before it is cut off and Sylvanas escapes. The lead up to this and its climax is where we can really explore the dangers of vengeance.
In DF i want the spirits come back as dryads, ancients or maybe even as an amalgamation and become a new wildgod.
As for the Horde I want to see some remorse and good gestures from them like turning over their Sylvanas royalists and a complete withdrawal of NE lands assuming we ever get a world revamp.
I could go into more details in how the dialogues and presentation would change but I am not going to bother, these would be the large brush strokes I would have liked to see.
Yes, everyone was counting on it. And if Sylvanas was to become the raid boss, let the Jailer take her soul after death from Tyrande’s hand and give her a new body in the Maw. Everything would be the same, but presentation would be much better. Nathanos doesn’t have his original body so it wouldn’t be a problem.
No, why? current night elves never wanted to expand their territories, leave them in their forests and they will be very happy.
No.
Yes, please. We already have the souls of night elves, all we need is for Elune to make them new bodies.
I think Tyrande killing him at the end of the xpac was better, and making him die at the start would make the second time not as good or there would be no definitive kill of him later.
The victory of the warfront is shown in a quest at the end of BFA.
About the sylvanas vs tyrande, i am not sure if i disagree or agree. On one hand, yes, it feels bad for Tyrande to not demolish her, but at the same time Sylvanas was also being empowered by a being that could have similar power to Elune, but thats speculation, we’ve seen Tyrande shrugging off the chains that bound lich king bolvar like they were nothing, Tyrande did defeat sylvanas and was probably the most powerful mortal character at that point in time, but she did not get the finishing blow.
She would still kill him at the end of the Xpac and I got some ideas that could make it really cool. I think you know this too so I won’t expand on it.
The reason why killing him during the Darkshore event is that during that time the Night Elves had taken a brutal beating, they lost pretty much everything, the Horde is getting all the attention and they seem to go from one victory to the next.
And by they I mean Sylvanas. She was like an Anime character and everything was going according to her plan regardless of outcome.
Nathanos being killed and her being forced to use one of her Valkyr to bring him back would have really given big win to Alliance players while waited for more content.
Instead they had to kill Sira, their people raised against them, Darkshore even more of a ruin, Alliance divided, Sylvanas winning at the cost of everyone.
And then to reward all this patience with Nathanos staying at his house, being cocky while a depressed Tyrande kills him? No. Thats just mega dumb, why would I be happy with this?
You asked what would make me happy and I explained. Do you take issue with cinematics that I would like? Or do you want to go back to the hyperbole arguments that I want to delete the Horde?
If you want to show a character that is bursting from power at their own perile for the sake of revenge and show that this power can barely measure up to Sylvanas and the only way to win is to attack from behind while they are flying away AFTER A VICTORY SPEECH then I have serious doubt you were serious when you asked what I would like to see for satisfied.
And I don’t think I am alone either, several people have echoe’d what I have said.
What you should be covering is going over my wish list and tell me if it is reasonable or not. If its reasonable great. If its not reasonable, tell me why it isn’t.
we did not. That is the point. We did not get what I mentioned otherwise I would not have listed it.
Like what?
You asked for me to elaborate. I did and now you have nothing to respond with? Would you have preferred I be unreasonable and ask to bath in baby orc blood?
But none of this supports that argument that Tryande was the only one to stop Jaina, since she didn’t. In fact, the group effort came a lot closer.
Never claimed that Blizzard was treating “revenge” as a concept, consistently, In fact, given their track record, one has doubts. I imagine that Tryande’s pot arc was created without any thought to any of that.
What they did with her, in itself, was not an uncommon, in fact that very original, way of treating revenge stories.
And yes, I did infer that you wanted an “avenging force of good defeating evil” plot are for Tyrande. Blizzard chose to go another way.
I always got the vibe that the night warrior stuff was patched in at the last moment, which is why Tyrande had no part in the warfront at all, and really only showed up as a world quest talking head after the quest arc. which also makes me wonder how much that arc got patched into Shadowlands afterwards as sort of a ripple effect.
