Thank you for presenting your idea on the CC forums, and I think you have a decent idea. I think many people would like to see the covenant spells on the talent trees. However, there are some major issues with it.
When leggo or other previous used spells get placed on the talent trees, they are substantially nerfed, hollowed out, and simplified. This is unfortunate, and while the idea is cool, they won’t ever feel the same as talents.
Many of the covenant spells actually play against the flow of the specs. This would create an issue where blizz would have to rebuild the spec, the spell, or just leave it as it is knowing it won’t be used but it’s the cheapest option.
I admit, the idea of more talents is refreshing, however, it’s not all what it seems. The talent trees are substantially riddened with dead, unfun, and useless talents that over time have been nerfed to the ground. Providing more spells might sound good, but realistically, it just adds more dead clutter to the trees. A very similar methodological example is the vault. You open it up with 6 or so options, ok cool, but then it hits you that your forced into choosing 1 option. That feels bad as well. The same is for the talent trees.
Many people are really getting tired of watching blizz recycle old spells. Legion’s artifact spells have been reused over and over again as talents, legendaries, and pvp spells. Implementing covenant spells would just follow that same path. Many in the community want a fresh slate. Not a new class, but a whole new way of playing old specs. Talents is where this needs to happen.
In conclusion, what needs to ultimately happen with the talents trees is a complete overhaul. Dead talents need removed, new and fresh spells need implemented, and blizz’s notion of what each spec should be needs to flow with the talents.
I don’t think Blizzrad has qualified people to do the overhaul. There will be one and its going to be unbalanced mess as usual. If they have failed every expansion after 5.4 why the hell would 10.0 be any different? In other words next expansion is once again playable state after last patch in 2.5 years…
That’s the honest truth, for sure. 2 years ago it was shadow priests, and they still don’t know what they want out of that spec. This xpac was what, aff locks, and look at them meow. Garbage bottom dwellers.
However, we must ask: does playing a boring, flatlined spec better then playing a new, yet fractured spec? While the old gives stability with a low ceiling, the new gives chaos with a high ceiling. Additionally, they are known to buff that spec just to get people to play it.
It sucks we can’t get somewhere in between. A highly functional, smooth flowing spec without any annoying catches that cause players to pull their hair out. Why is blizz infatuated with going against the flow?
So they wish to make another talent tree because of dead or unwanted talents but not add more to the tree .Simple solution get rid of the chance wheel generator in that matter get rid of all chance so we can have spells that do what they were design to do in the first place.
I’d kind of like Blizzard to go back to a Glyph system for builds. I hope that conduits were a test bed for the idea of Potency, Finesse, and Endurance.
I’d love all talents to be broken into this paradigm, and you get to buy 2 Greater Potencies, 3 Lesser Potencies, 2 Finesse, and 2 Endurance. As an example for Shaman, stuff like Wind Rush would fit under Finesse, Ascendance and Chain Harvest might be greater potencies, stuff like Lashing Flames or Fire Nova might be lesser potencies, and then Vital Accretion and nature’s guardian would be endurance.
You could throw basically anything and everything into that system and then let players make their own build and see what sticks.
I actually enjoy the way Enhancement Shaman has multiple builds for instance, as compared to say, Bear, who only has one build because the choices are mostly a joke and options that shouldn’t be paired against each other are.
Sometimes dumb things are fun. The old talents are objectively worse than what we have today. But, imho, they were more fun. Not because of what they were, but more for what they represent.
I liken it to our inevitable march towards electric cars. Every logical reason in the world why electric cars are better won’t change that ICE cars are just more fun. They just are.
Sometimes the inefficiency in something is what makes it beautiful. @Devs, is it better to be right, or is it better to be happy?
Logical perfection is boring. That’s why people think fondly back on Relics, Arrows, wanding for mana, etc. It’s absolutely objectively worse, but it’s more fun. It’s less gamery.
I’m not saying it offered more (or any) freedom, but it’s that kind of imperfection that defines art.
That’s a fair point, and I’m sure some classes in particular have this feeling. My main expertise is with Frost DK, so I’ll speak to that.
Frost DK’s artifact ability in legion is now my favorite spell to use in the entire game. Calling a giant frost dragon to nuke everything in front of me? That’s an MMO level of epic.
And to your point of them being nerfed, not exactly true - Frostwyrm’s fury was originally a 5 minute CD, then a talent, then baseline, and is now a 3min CD (I don’t remember when exactly the CD was changed, but a good buff regardless)
My point is, that while yes, some covenant abilities do change a spec, others feel integral to it. Think of things like Convoke, Abom Limb, Condemn, Mindgames, etc. those spells are all very cool, and the choice would be there to pick whichever one you want (which is more/less how it is now)
Either way these are just my ideas, doesn’t make them perfect! Thanks for making a GD thread to point out your thoughts !
It’s just an example I’ve seen here. I’m on the forums quite a bit.
It’s more the whole “resource management” thing. Like back when mages could run out of mana during a boss.
It’s objectively better today. The flow is more fun, the numbers are bigger. But that playstyle is gone forever. Maybe better isn’t the right word, just different.
Hmmm,that question I asked a long time ago to a friend of mine. “Is money more important or happiness?” We argued about this for months ,it turn out money was more important for most people who believed money would buy happiness but that wasn’t always the case.
Sometimes the simplest is better than the most complex ,when happiness is striped with disappointment .
When people talk about WoW losing the “rpg” aspect of “mmorpg”, they talk about things like resource management, threat, spell consumables (like candles or ankhs), the old talent trees, weapon skill, etc. etc., It’s not because those systems were better, but they were more fun. More grounding. Like the foibles in an old car, or dimples in a pretty face. The tiny imperfections that give character to something.
You talent abilities and the abilities have two modifiers only one of which could be active.
Each modifier changes what the base abilities does.
Example: on my war i talent massacre which gives the random on use proc to execute. Two modifiers i could then select: one to let execute be usable at 80% health and above (condemn) or execute does 20% more dam if it massacre procs.
Another example: double time. Talent is the same but then you pick modifiers: using charge within 10 seconds of casting heroic leap gives a 5% dmg buff for 10 seconds or your first use of charge provides avatar for 20 seconds
Talent trees stay same size but have way more depth.
I actually completely disregard that “feedback” and throw it straight into the trash.
I know a number of people who played WoW back in the day and let me tell you, the rogue who didn’t have fire resistance so he couldn’t get into melee range of the core hound, shooting his gun with shoot over and over (because rogues didn’t even have auto-shoot, so you had to hit the button over and over) did NOT have fun farming bullets. The hunter who had to go farm a bunch of pet food and bullets for his next PvP session did NOT have fun farming arrows and meats.
I throw that feedback straight into the garbage. That’s nostalgia, it isn’t real feedback. You think you do but you don’t.
So these modifiers give depth to a spell but also it makes the abilities complex when all of the spells have them and are running in time as a rotation .Simple for one ,complex for all and add chance that this would give damage you want doesn’t always pan out.
You don’t have to like or agree with it, but it is real feedback lol. Let me try to rephrase this with something a little less gamey.
I used to have a ‘82 VW Rabbit. Great gas mileage, drop top. But terrible. I bought it as parts and reassembled it, it was missing vent ducts, the entire exhaust system from the engine all the way back. The seats were in let’s just say “poor” condition. But I loved that car. Partly because of where I was in my life at the time, but I absolutely loved that car. I was emotional when I had to sell it.
Today, I drive a Pilot. It’s strong, sensible. Room for kids. Safe. Dependable. Everything you want in a car. I like it, but I don’t love it. Not the same way. I’d trade it in tomorrow and never think about it again, but I think about that Rabbit all the time.