have to disagree with you here. They were never given a choice to go down that path. If any Forsaken were paladins in their previous life, why would they not return to that life again? If given the choice?
And this talk of “The Light” makes no real sense. The lore? The argument for lore went so far out of whack it it literally makes no sense now. One person’s pain is another person’s pleasure (or addiction).
Again, no paladin that is currently an undead in the game chose that path willingly.
Sir Zeliek had no control over his body, he was under the control of Kel’thuzad, which is why he tried to convince adventurers to leave Naxxramas rather than fight the Four Horsemen, and why in the comics he apologizes to an adventurer he kills after he stabs him in the back. He doesn’t want to do these things or use the light, but he has no choice.
Scarlet Commander Marjhan and the other risen scarlet paladins are in the same boat. They were forcefully reanimated by Balnazzar. None of them chose to become undead paladins, that choice was forced on them and it drove them mad, as the holy artifacts, weapons and armor that they once relied on now burned them when they tried to touch them.
As for the lore, as stated, the Light when used by an undead burns, causing incredible pain. A wound healed by the light to an undead is like a wound getting healed by fire on a human via cauterization. It works, but its a horrible experience for them. Additionally light use restores the dulled/dead senses that an undead has.
Normally undead do not have a sense of smell or taste and their ability to feel is reduced considerably. You could cut an undead in half with a sword, and they wouldn’t feel any pain. We’ve literally seen this in-game, when we find a Forsaken that has been cut in half in Nazmir and we put him back together by picking up his legs and reconnecting him with the rest of his torso.
But that changes when the light gets involved. Their sense of smell returns, which makes them smell all the rot and filth that they otherwise wouldn’t smell. Their sense of taste returns, so now they can taste the decay in their mouths and their ability to feel returns to normal, so they can start feeling the various carrion eating insets that inhabit their bodies, they start to feel the flesh getting eaten from their decaying carcases and when a weapon hits them, they feel it the same way they would have when they were alive.
For those reasons there are no Forsaken paladins.
Could there be one in the future? Possibly, but it would be an extremely rare thing unless the Forsaken created a way to harness similar powers, but by using shadow magic instead of light.
Actually, there’s a new justification beyond the fact that we know that they can be paladins.
And that is Calia.
As long as void elves don’t get paladins i’m happy to welcome every other race to the paladin family
Mechagnome that use artificial light would be dope af
Calia is not a paladin.
And Calia was reanimated in a very unique way, something that most Forsaken are going to be unable to get access to. After all it took two very powerful priests and the assistance of a Naaru to reanimate her.
When will people learn that everything is justified in the lore in this type of game. (aka lore or any semblance of lore and world building rules can be manipulated to fit almost anything.)
This isn’t the same as say a novel where lore is somewhat sacred and there’s a built foundation that is expected to be established upon, literally there’s almost nothing that isn’t open in an ever-changing/expanding in the moment game world such as WoW. It’s just a question of will it be implemented or won’t it, that’s all there is to it nothing more/nothing less.
Side note: This sentiment should be a stickied top post just in my opinion/too many times lore is brought into the equation as gospel as it’s applied in context to other things as I mentioned above and simply acts as an obstacle in the way of what’s moving toward the future of this particular game and on top of that creates unnecessary arguments.
Except that they are related in that neither has any bearing on the capacity of your character to play a class, assume a certain power level, become good or evil, etc.
In fact, the Blizzard FAQ for new players used to say as much. Which is why:
Is equally as absurd as saying “Women aren’t capable of creating heroes”. It’s transparently stupid.
Except that they are related in that neither has any ultimate consequence for what your character can become in this game, nor should they.
You are saying this, but it is also absurd.
So I will just ignore.
This isn’t even remotely true.
Look at Lillian Voss. She was not a ‘hero’ by any means. She was an enemy, and she refused to sign on with the Horde, only joining them during the events of BFA when she was forced to. Since then she’s become the defacto leader of the Forsaken, at least, for the time being. She elevated herself, post-undeath, to become something she absolutely wasn’t when she was alive.
A peasant who gets turned into a Forsaken doesn’t have to stay a peasant, they can elevate themselves if they want to by putting in the effort, after all, they have the rest of their unlives to do it, and undead can remain animated for a very, very long time.
You literally say it would be impossible, and then cite an NPC that’s literally the example. Whether the LK has hold of him or not, using Holy magic, by your argued logic, would destroy him - regardless of who or what has a hold on him. A physical form doesn’t care what spirit possesses it. It’s material, corporeal, and is affected by the same logic one could use to argue why other things magically can’t have that ability.
They want to sit there and say that they don’t make sense, and then we have Forsaken Scarlet Crusaders. In full plate. An entire 4 wing dungeon with plenty of them. Their Lore makes sense when they care enough to make it make sense.
By the same token, Zandalari shouldn’t get Paladins because the Loa that gave them that ability was killed and reanimated as an undead zombie.
As others have mentioned, Sir Zeliek is extremely exceptional, as Zeliek himself demonstrates. Zeliek managing to keep his mind fully intact in his condition is pretty much unprecedented, with most others reverting to their old selves (or something similar to it) only after someone or something else intervenes. As a result, Zeliek is massively outside of the norm.
Bolvar is the only one I can readily think think of who has shown similar qualities (unrelated to actually being able to use the light), when he resisted the Lich King’s personal attempts to break him.
If you are forsaken, it may hurt a lot more since the plague which made them is based on something the demons came up with. If you come back Directly, like DKs are, it should not hurt. That being said, the rules of all DKs apply to an undead who uses the light, they still have to inflict pain in order to keep from decaying. They only need to believe their cause is righteous, which is why Sally Whitemaine is a better example instead of Sir Zeliek because he lacks free will whereas she is fully in command of her senses.
Aside from Zeliek, Draenei death knight player characters do not lose their Gift of the Naaru racial and are, indeed, healed by it and capable of healing other characters with it. If they couldn’t use it, it probably would have been changed to a mechanically identical but differently-flavored racial to reflect the lore.
So, it may matter how they are returned to live than just being undead. The Light does not have any type of feeling towards or against the Undead. The light seems to understand that there are differences between the Forsaken and Death Knights.
There is also the fact that the souls of the undead (Forsaken, death knights, or ghouls) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence.
Death Knights could be so strong willed or use to pain that they fight through the pain the light inflicts on them. So, it might be possible for more undead paladins to exist as long as they could withstand the incredible amount of pain they would have to take.
Then lastly as shown by Saa’ra a corpse can be infused with the light and be resurrect, but still remain undead. This opens up the possibility of undead Paladins that are lightforged.
Couple things right off the bat…
There are other instances of priest + warrior races that also do not have paladin. Gnomes, trolls, kul tiran, goblins, mechagnomes, and worgen all jump to mind other than Night Elf and Orc (and even still it is mag’har orc whose version of priest is more forced on them). Also the training of a paladin and warrior are vastly different. In fact, at their core, a paladin and warrior are very polar opposites in their combat approach.
A paladin and priest use the light in very fundamental different ways. The VERY few undead paladins do not have their own will because none would or even could willingly choose such a contradictory existence. A paladin would literally hate themselves to the point their own light would self-combust them.
Canonically, the forsaken FORSAKE their faith and turned to shadow/void believing the light FORSAKE them (hence the name). If memory serves too, the OG forsaken were from the plague which paladins straight up were immune to. It may be a retcon now, but I am pretty sure the only reason undead had access to the holy and disc tree (back when disc was basically diet holy) was for gameplay but that even their “holy” spells were canonically shadow-based.
That all said, Blizzard pretty much is opening the door with the addition of Calia becoming the new Forsaken leader. She’s retained her full connection to the light and is basically the figurehead the forsaken can look to. I suspect we’ll see next expansion undead gain upright forms similar to Nathanos and Calia with more healed appearances instead of the forced rotted looks as well as the addition of paladins…especially if the expansion is void vs light, like I think it is, we very may well see pretty much any race get paladins and priests like they all get DK’s now.
There exist Undead Holy Priests that have no issue with what they choose to be. It’s not different than an Undead Paladin doing the same thing. They aren’t impossible, and they aren’t insane for wanting to do it.
No, they didn’t. Forsaken Priests still worship the Light, learning and teaching it to the rest of their kin. Their name has nothing to do with the Light forsaking them.
Hire this man Blizzard you cowards!
Sure do act like em though
This
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS.
This is why I don’t understand why everyone wants forsaken paladins so much.
Oh look another let’s break paladin lore thread.
There is no sane or under control undead paladins, and forsaken as a faction is mostly comprised of shadow priests.
And no, there is no such thing as a void paladin.
Also Alonsos faol is not associated with the forsaken despite being dead, so don’t try that angle lol.
/thread
/mute
Actually: Calia Menethil is the reason Forsaken Paladins would work now. Heck, the events at the beginning of this expac now makes it almost feasible.
And this is coming from someone who is pretty adamant about it only being acceptable if the lore supports it.
Will power.
You’re forgetting willpower. It takes willpower to be able to withstand the Light as a Forsaken.