Why you make Night elf strong from beginning to the end?

General Discussion
1

What is the idea of your developers make the game balance?

You can check the Human vs Elf 1v1 winning rate of the current patch 1.35 is dramatically less than 50% for ALL levels at w3champions – OverallStatistics – winrates-per-race-and-map.

The Ancient of War stands up so NE hero can creep as fast as Hum (so faster than Orc and UD) but with no loss of collecting resources and no loss of HP of units!

The wisps can be sent everywhere to scout so NE has better view than other races.

The kofg/DH+spring wells recovery make other races run away in the early stage.

And NE can even expanse and upgrade the main base at the same time! (Though Hum can expand at T1 but see how slow their tech is.)

Then with the economic and technical advantage, Druid bear + panda make NE unbeatable in the ground or air in the late stage.

Compared to Human, NE are stronger in both early and late stage.
You must nerf NE in either stage.

2 Likes
2

Nightelfs arent that strong… but let me break it down to you early game wise undead,humans and orcs have a high advantage whisp are slow at gathering wood requiring more money to get wood quicker, then you got the auras on the other races are honestly superior. Orcs honestly easily out class most of the game. Humans have high advantage lets look at the casters okay Orc caster instantly summon 2 dogs doesnt take anything but mana, human archmage can ha ve a summon up contantly with their arcane aura for mp… a night elf has to use threes to summon which has its limits and to recover mp you have to run to a moon well which times time to recover mana, unlike humans that just got to becarefull with overspending until max mp aura… I dont want to be mean are anything, but do you people calling night elfs op/ way 2 strong know how weak they are compared to the others… or do you just suck so bad at the other races lol

But lets go to the next tier Warden,cryptlord, shadow hunter and blood mage.
Can warden have temp and blink sure but you want to know truth those are kind of bad in strategy unless you play SMART. Cryptlord has an aoe stone , summons beatles that takes no food supply, blood mage drains mp (which makes humans more op when pared with archmage… than anyother race tbh) Then you got voodoking that aoe heals,hexs and can make everything unkillable oh and i forgotblood mage literaly has an annoying thing that never goes away when summoned unless your not smart.

Next Paladin:priestess of the moon: (believe it was tc or blademaster here either way) and death knight.
Paladin bubble, rez an entire group of dead allys, and heals plus defense aura, priestess of the moon an arrow, a scout bird (kinda worthless skill in most games) trueshot which is nicei give you that and star fall.
Then you got the dk… oh dk … you got unholy aura which is re gen and speed… you got death coil which heals and damages… and you got a scarfice when pared with necros your a god… with it THEN You got reanimate… same as warden lvl 6 basicly… but tbh much stronger when used right…

then blade master do i even need to explain why that outclasses nightelf heros(almost all night elf heros)
next tier: mountiner(dwarf man) stun: stomp slow aoe dmg, avatar which makes them immune… then you got tc AOE stun: shock wave damage, resurcation of himself… and attack speed aura(plus something else on it think its movement if remember right as well) then you got lonely demon hunter immortal which is great… mana drain is good evasion is eh tbh with no cloaking… then you got matamorphs which is great but not super amazing… unlike humans… or rlly orcs and then we got undead dreadlord literaly one of the best mele hero in the game when used with the right units… vamp aura, sleep, Carrion swarm and an immortal golem thing summoned…

I’m sorry but if anyone believes night elf is the stronger of the 4 your not that smart lol Night elfs just need far more brain power to play at a reasonable level it has no mercy if your not smart… the reason you probably think they so strong is your play against people way smarter than you with the race they play aka night elf in this case.

If any of the races are way 2 op it would be the humans between mana healing and overall power they outclass everyone and that just a fact also if you think humans arent stronger you have no idea how to use them correctly lol

Your arch mage… or even mountain or paladin can easily take out keeper of the grove… and as for wells they dont last forever… or you could be smart like everyone else and just blow them up with tanks and mortors… (i really hope they dont listen to crybabys like you that cant use their brain to know why humans are rlly scary op heres some advice get archmage,paladin and either blood mage or get the pitlord for the aoe fire attack… and get a set of tanks and knights and it gg for most night elf build(tanks can anti air so…) Lets face it op you just suck with humans lol also priest dont hurt to dispell keepers summons lol plus inner fire buff is rlly strong

Also i prefer undead myself or randomizing… but nightelfs being more op than HUMANS… that opinion right there shows you have no idea what your talking about when the reverse is honestly more true humans are more op than every race when used right

3

I agree . And no discussion! Elves write fairy tales. Your argument is out of place. It’s ridiculous.

4

or you could just screw over every player with humans and play them correctly lol… you literaly playing the god mode race that easily outclasses moon wells lol

5

That’s a cute story you wrote but in the latest patch balance NE has a >50% win rate against every race at 2000+ MMR. Below that only UD has an advantage over elf, and that is another race that needs badly to be balanced. It’s a nice story in your head, but the facts say different

1 Like
6

that doesnt really mean anything when the game itself ccrashes all the time, and most people have no idea what they are doing lol win rate doesnt mean its not balanced, it just shows overall people suck lol … cute you assossiate the 2 … no wonder why gaming sucks so much anymore…

7

“I got beat by NE so they must be OP.” That’s all I’m reading here.

8

typically whineyness, from ppl that dont know how to use their brain in a strategy game ;p

9

Just watch some pro match and and if you ever play the game/have game sense, you will find how unbalanced it is.

HvN only has 41% winning rate at pro grandmaster level on w3c!

10

When you go past “grandmaster” the human win rate increases significantly, so there’s something very different about how the top 0.01% of players play from even the top 1%.

I’m not prepared to agree there’s a balance issue based on such a small number of the most elite. Whatever issue exists can’t be that substantial if it ONLY manifests at the tip top of the tip top tier.

As a general rule, I will ignore anyone who says “just look at pro games” becuase pro games are so completely and totally different in ways that go beyond simply being more skilled- the overall play style is itself entirely different. Which is why most games these days take all levels of play into consideration seperately.

People like you put way too much stock in the pro scene when it comes to balance. Making balance decisions 100% purely on pro games isn’t gauranteed to improve the experience for everyone. If you want to make the game better for everyone, and not just tournament competitors, you need to look at everyone, not just a few people.

11

Is there is a chance that some good Hum players could go into Grandmaster but because of the unbalance they stay at Master and are better than other NE players?

And HvN at ALL levels of patch 1.35 are MUCH below 50% so they are displayed by red letters at W3C. What would you say about this? Just check the statistics first before you defend for NE.

12

Is there a chance? There’s always a chance. Is it likely? I’d have to say no. Even if it did, no one seems to be able to say exactly the reason the pro play HvE matches are so far from ideal. If there was a specific issue or reason why everyone is doing okay in this matchup but a couple people can’t break into the top 100 or 500 or whatever, I would think that it would be clearly identifiable, because a 6% deviation from the expected win rate isn’t insignificant. But so far there’s been little discussion on what exactly that issue is.

And I’m not saying there isn’t a problem at all, but having identified this win rate disparity, now you have to look at the rest of the data to see if there’s a common theme. if XYZ unit is too powerful, then one would think that even at low levels of play, that power gap would manifest. After all, it’s pretty common for lower players to try to emulate the pros (and generally the reasons they don’t succeed aren’t strategy related but rather mechanical skill i.e. micro/macro)

You don’t have to BE a pro player to understand how these things work. I’m crap at this game, but it’s because my APM is low and I’m not great at micro. It’s not because I don’t know how the units interact or my overall strategy or build order is flawed.

13

first off… here what you do and i can disprove this make 2 npcs both insane one human and one elf chances are human will win majority of the time, players make mistakes and have off days … promatchs is about making less mistakes a little luck… and timing and it is so much more than the race itself that can make one win or lose

14

It’s unbalanced at every MMR. You can filter by MMR as I discussed. Under 2000 MMR Undead has a better rate against elf. Elf still has a better rate against both other races at that level. Above 2000 Elf is >50% against all races.

Which AI wins against one another is irrelevant. The bots are poorly designed and don’t even make all the possible units a race has to offer.

15

“I got beat by NE so they must be OP.” That’s all I’m reading here.

Clearly you need reading comprehension skills. The statistics are available to anyone with eyes, and I am just repeating them. The statistics are also able to be filtered across many different skill ranges, all of which say the same thing. At medium skill and below, Undead has a slight edge over elf. This is a traditional matchup imbalance in the game and can be addressed in ways that don’t skew other race matchups against Elf, i.e. nerf undead slightly instead of buffing Elf heroes, melee units and air units.

16

Yes, they are, and outside of the best of the best, there doesn’t seem to be a substantial issue. Obviously it’s not perfect, but when every faction is distinct, it’s not really possible. Now, if anyone has something more insightful to say than “look at pros play” or “look at the win rates,” I’m happy to hear of it. Otherwise, I will continue to ask that someone do so.

As for the comment that triggered your response, there really wasn’t anything in their post to offer any good reason for their opinion other than the high tier win rates. The post comes off as complaining about losing to an NE player rather than actually identifying a problem.

17

When you filter by MMR down the skill level, there is actually a significant percentage differece for all levels in elf win rate. Don’t know why you would call this not a substantial issue. I’ve made other posts about what the specific issues are but it should be fairly obvious given recent patch notes: Demon Hunter has been overbuffed, and druid of the claws and chimeras have also been overbuffed. Messing with the chimera mechanic is particularly frustrating given that it was a mechanic in the game for over 2 decades for good reason. They are insanely strong, and the aoe to friendly units requires them to actually be microed. Now they can just be rolled out and sent into the field with no micro at no cost. This in combination with bear buff and Demon Hunter buff allows elfs to expand way more easily and just casually roll out 3-4 chimeras on top of an already overpowered army with little economic cost.

18

Below master, there’s like a 1-2% disparity, which is within acceptable range. You don’t usually say there’s a significant balance issue until at least 4-5% away from 50%
Only at top tier is the disparity statistically significant.

Still waiting for people to identify the actual issues.

19

Over a sample size of roughly 15,000 games 1-2% disparity is quite a large number. This is the sample size. I understand as a guy who trolls forums with 1700 posts and not a single game played on w3champions you have quite strong opinions on what counts as significant or not.

I did also point out what the imbalanced mechanics are. Because you can’t or won’t read does not mean nobody has identified them

20

Most games i’ve played won’t make adjustments for that level of a disparity, there could be a million samples, 1-2% is minor and not indicative of a systemic issue, and generally won’t result in balance changes unless everything is within that threshold. In League and Dota, for instance, disparities of 1% are the norm, and it wouldn’t do to make changes to every character to try to get them to exactly 50%, it’s just not going to happen. Granted there are only four things you can play as in War3, but that’s still 16 different matchups. you are not going to get them all within 1-2% I can promise you. In fact, that percentage is within margin of error, and can be atributed to the specific people playing a given race or other non-race-specific factors.