Why Human is imba against Nightelf!

Competitive Multiplayer
1

What ist he definion of imbalance? It’s either an unfair advantage for one player in a normal fight or a tactic is too hard to counter even in theory. Both is the case in the current NE vs HU matchup.

There are two main tactics for human currently:

  1. The human expands:
    The human gets his expansion nearly always up, eventhough you scout and harass it. Afterwards he cancels your counter expansion (it’s near impossible to get it up in the early game) and then he harasses you with 5-10 footies to death. (hello ToD)
    Even if you survive and don’t loose too many wisp (2-3 are the normal case), you are lacking still wood and playing against an expansion.
    Then both players creep their spots and after 5 mins the human makes his 70 supply push and normally wins.
  2. The human makes a rifler timing push:
    The human creeps 1-2 big spots and harasses afterwards with 5 footies the nightelf base. Usually the nightelfs loses again some wisp.
    At tier2, the human gets the naga und pushes again at the nightelf base to cancel the lores.
    After that, both players creep their spots until the human pushes with a 50-60 supply rifler/caster army the nightelf base. At that timing the nightelf needs needs at least one more minute to get his bear master upgrade and usually loses at that point.

In both scenarios the Nightelf has a tacitcal disadvantage. He can’t cancel the human expension, can’t get his own up at the same time, get harassed too easily against their economy, has a too strong disadvantage against a 70 supply push or in the other case, his timings are just off.

Which units are viable fort he nightelf:

  1. Mass hunts : get hardcountered at tier2 with Rifler/naga/slow/WEs
  2. Talons : get hardcountered by Breakers
  3. Dryads : get hardcountered by Riflers and later by Mortas
  4. Archers : get easily countred by Blizzard or Clap and defend footies.
  5. Hipporaider : not viable against Rifler and WEs
  6. MGs : too expensive, not enough damage against Rifler and really viable at tier3. Countered by Knights
  7. Bears: Get countered by Blizzard and Clap and even Rilfer/Caster are the counter against bears (eventhough the Nighelfs makes Bears to counter Rilfer/Caster lol)

In a nutshell: The Nightelf has a lack of tactical varieties and is forced to play a mix of Dryads and Bears, because nothing else is really viable! On the other hand, the human as an superior Tier1, Tier2 and even Tier3 army against the Nightelf and can choose from a multitude of tactics!

What about the heros:

  • DH: got nerfed by -1 Agility and got even nerfed passively due to the Rifler buff. Therefore he can be shoot down too fast which gives the human a too easy advantage with a rifler/naga push.
  • Keeper: Is good at the early game but falls extremely off in the late game. 2-3 Priest are countering the Keeper by them self
  • Warden is only on TS viable
  • Potm: useless because mass range is not viable against human

What has to change:

  1. The human harass is way too strong! Either the cost of footmen or the producing time has to increase.
  2. The Blizzard/Clap combi is too strong! Clap has to be nerfed in some case
  3. Rifler are broken against Nighelf currently! They should have either less HP or a lower damage output.
  4. Bears should have removed their last damage nerf to be more viable again
  5. Breakers are countering the Rejuvenation too easily. Stealing that cast should be done manually
  6. The deadly timing pushes: The producing time of Casters should be increased
  7. Towers should have slightly less HP
  8. I would overhaul the MGs totally:
    320 Gold, 80 Wood, 5 food, 1100 HP, only one Taunt again and make them slightly smaller! (It’s like splitting 2 MGs into 3. The overall HP would be the same, but those units would be more viable)
  9. The Anti-Magic-Potion should be available at Tier2

PS: I know that balance talks will trigger a lot of players but i’ve talked to at least ten top50 Nightelf players and everyone agrees with me. The current matchup is way too hard for Nightelf.

Update

ToD vs Paladyn: easy lvl 3 AM after 3.5minutes, exp and then harass with 10 footies the NE base. 10 footies A-Click the NE exp and the game is nearly over.

ToD vs ToRReN: Tod got harassed by creeping the expension. The nightelf harass was worthless and then Tod harasses the NE economy again with a not punishable expansion in his back. Kills afterwards the NE exp and the game is over.

ToD vs Paladyn: standard Rifler/Naga push. As soon Tod the Naga, the human army is way superior. Push at minute 8 - The first bear is at minute 9! Easy win after 11 Min.

ToD vs HowMuchLong: Fast exp attempt by Tod while he gets harassed. Eventhough he lost 3 workers, the Nightelf loses instead an archer, the TP and has a low HP DH. Exp goes easily through! Harass again with 10 footies and denying the potential NE exp. At minute 16 the NE has the only viable mix of Bears/Dry/Fairies and still loses hardly by not killing any unit from ToDs 80 supply army!

TH000 vs. Check:
Game1: Check scouts the exp attempt by Th000, harasses and accomplishing nothing. Check tries an archer/talons push but has no chance against 2 breakers and 2 riflers. The game is over after 10 minutes.
Game2: standard Rifler/Naga push and check has no change with his bears! Game over after 10 Minutes!
Game3: Footy harass on the wisp. Check can survive a little bit longer, but at the end his 60 supply Rifler/Caster wrecking the 60 supply of MGs, Bears and dry!

Hawk vs Foggy:
Game1: Standard meta MK vs Warden (TS is the only map where she is viable).
Exp gets harassed but still gets easily up. Foggy is able to set up his expansion too, but loses afterwads vs mass Hawks. (Archers//Dry/ Hippos are losing to easily against MK/mass Hawks)
Game2: Foggy tries off meta Hipporaider but has no chance against Rifler/Flying Machines.

Neytpoh vs. Deathnote:
Game1: Deathnote gets an easy exp up and has a fast lvl3 MK vs a lvl2 Warden.
After 12 Minutes he pushes the Nighelf expo with 70 vs 50 supply. Neytpoh has no chance and loses afterwards.
Game3: Neytpoh tries a Panda Towerrush against the human exp. At the same time he loses his main against mass footies. At that time the game was nearly over.
Game5: Am footy harass into the NE base. Neytpoh could barely hold, but after the first 2 Rifler and the MK, the game is over after 10 minutes!
Game2 and 4 was won by Neytpoh, because Deathnote countered the off meta Pitlord and DR wrongly!

ToD vs Grubby: Straight up Rifler/Caster game. Tod is losing no units against Grubbys Bears/MG/Dry Mix

I could go on with those videos, but the pattern is clear:

  • The human expension goes too easily up
  • The footman harass is way too strong
  • The Rifler/Naga push is too early and too strong
  • Rifler/Caster > Bears/Dry

These where top games, but on the lower skill end it looks even worse because you need a lot more skill vs the human than the human with a Rifler/Naga focus army.

14 Likes
2

I totally agree. Elf just needs some buffs, to be able to fight human. they just get up the expo all the time with easy, while elf expo is so easy to cancel!

4 Likes
3

This Person speaks the truth if there ever was one.
They overbuffed ne in 1.30 and now they overnerfed it.
There must be BALANCE ~~~

1 Like
4

Buff ne ,weakest race now not even moon can qualify for wgl ,sad life

5 Likes
5

I feel the problem are heroes. For years elves played DH for 2 reasons:

  1. he was too strong
  2. other heroes were simply crap

Now they nerfed DH, nerfed back Kotg… Elf has simply no good hero combo like other races.
Warden and Potm are useless in 90% games.
Other races have great combos DK, Lich, DL,. Or AM, MK,Pala … Elf has weak heroes and always have ti find some new meta from the tavern

1 Like
6

first, they should never have touched the keeper in the first place (i’m talking about buffing him…he was already good back in like 2005, so i don’t get why they bothered messing with him at all…)

Second human has always been great vs elf. There was a phase where the keeper was a bit too strong in the mid game - but late game was pretty much always the same…if elf didn’t have the hero power to push through a 50 food human army (prior to their expansion) it was over…And mountain giants were only solid on maps with a fountain, otherwise it was just bears.

My problem is that the late game human army has been super strong for a long, long time and riflemen are way too strong. of all the tier 1.5 ranged units - i’d say rifles are the best (Hunts, fiends, HH).

Speaking of hunts - they’re trash that doesn’t help the cause either…

i don’t really have many solutions for this because I personally think human are overpowered (specifically rifles need a nerf, and thunder clap needs a nerf) vs both orc and elf…elf can kind of deal with human if they do enough damage in the early game…otherwise it just gets worse the longer elf is in the game…it has to be won before tier 3 and economy kick in…i think orc just auto lose these days for the most part.

I’d say part of the problem is the lack of elf damage in late game armies. year i get on paper bears do a ton of damage but you can’t use their abilities vs human, and most of the damage NE have in the late game depends on your hero choice. that’s why top elves use a panda and a DH over keeper on certain maps these days (vs human)…because keeper’s utility dwindles the longer the game goes on, while a DH gets better…as does panda.

hard to say. I think a bear buff would be a good place to start personally…and the above human nerfs…then i think it could be a bit more fair.

4 Likes
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Elf lategame should definitely be buffed, via heroes or units. Personally i think heroes lategame should be upgraded.
As it stands now, UD heroes own ELF on high lvl’s. Human heroes too, Orc heroes are balanced i feel.

If you touch units too much i think you could ruin other matchups, like HU vs UD.

Not only HU, but UD is also big problem for NE now. Coil/nova eats archer/hunts and later bears… that’s why you see players like Moon opting for mass dryads against UD. It is not optimal, but it is the only thing you can make against high lvl ud heroes.

1 Like
8

Hahahahha isnt this undead?

Does that mean buffing heroes other than DK will bring change?

9

You know, buff and nerf are not the only things they can do.
They can buff Kotg late game, by buffing lvl 3 spells… nerf early if necessary.
Similar goes to DK, i would nerf his lategame… lvl 3 coil is too strong, but then give him some more power early to compensate.
And human is just strong in every part of the game which cannot be right

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If anything - elf shouldn’t touch keeper anymore, he’s overtuned at this point, and I think the focus should be on certain tavern heroes and maybe the DH specifically for any changes going forward.

I don’t think they should mess with the DK either, because of how much UD rely on him…like he’s not overpowered, he just synergizes perfectly with everything UD has. That’s a racial issue as a whole imo

11

With some points i agree. However with keeper being overtuned i don’t agree. In pro games they very rarely use him anymore, only against Orc he still sees some play.
He is basically trash tier against Human, and suboptimal against Undead

12

This thread is so whiny, try these solutions before you complain.

1: Pit Lord, Rain of Fire harass with TPstaff/Zeppelin - delay tech. Specc into cleave and (optional) pick up Alchemist for heal. Cleave is ignores armor which is perfect against inner rifle armor laming. The fact that more NE players haven’t picked up this strategy is just… lol.
2: KOTG+Alchemist, 4 hunts, rest archers - Foggy build still works fine.
3: Alchemist+MG+Archers also works.
4: Solo Warden, economy harass - delay tech. Don’t pretend that this isn’t a strong tactic because it is. Works on TM, EI. She’s a fiddly hero so you need to skills to pull it off.

I could see other tavern heroes being used for pocket strategies like DR, Beastmaster Quillboar economy harass or Tinker with Rocket laming.

13

From a design point of view there are things that could improve the game:
-Change hunts to heavy armor (all NE isn’t countered by a mortar anymore, NE doesn’t have to solely rely on MG/bears for tanking, and creeping is more comfortable since NE doesn’t have to rely on heroes/summons/AOW for tanking)
-Give KOTG thorns aura 25/35/45% (this spell is a joke atm)

1 Like
14

Fully agree to your post, you feel kinda helpless when you are facing off against a Human as NE. UDs coil+nova is also too strong against NE.

Human early game creeping is way too powerful, the militia buff should only last for like 10 sec and be refreshed when you are close to your town hall. Always seeing DK and Archmage as first heroes is something that also should be looked into.

15

All your “advices” have nothing to do that the Human army is still way superior to the Nighelf army!
All “viable” tactics try to avoid a real straight up fight, because they would lose that one.

Rifler/Caster are still way too strong against Nightelf.

  1. Pitlord loses still vs a straight up rifler/caster naga push
  2. Keeper is only good in the early game. At the lategame his is nearly useless. Foggy and Moon playing with the Keeper a lame style to avoid a real fight.
  3. 2 claps and 20 archers are down. Human is the easiest race to counter mass archer
  4. Warden works only on TS, because you can abuse the expo with blink. It tells everthing, that warden is not viable on any other map.
  5. DR is good for a fast exp, but after priest dispel the hero is again useless.
    Beastmaster suffers hard against AM/Naga rifler and his summons get dispeled

All those “tactics” are no real solution against rifler/caster

PS: meanwhile Moon is loosing 0:3 against Yumiko

16

Well the point was to delay inner rifle tact. Why would you let them do it. Other races get better the longer you play. All of the points that i’ve suggested are things i’ve seen work at high level play. I’m not against the sentiment that people share here (being that NE sucks), but to say that there aren’t things you can’t do is just laughable. If you lose lategame, then don’t fight for lategame. Learn adapt, etc all that stuff.

17

Warcraft Gold League 2019 Winter Season is currently the best league in the world.
Of 14 games Nightelf vs Human, the nightelfs lost 71,4%!
All those games had the same pattern. Nightelfs couldn’t survive a straight up fight and lost vs a rifler/caster push.

And your only advice ist to play another hero or win at tier2 (where human is totally broken with Rifler/Naga)?

18

Have you got any other suggestions?
It’s better to look for solutions, than to start crying.
It’s not like this game is balanced or is even getting a patch anytime soon.

19

I appreciate your suggestions and overall tone, but still… this matchup is really broken atm.

There are ways against pitlord, same as against NE Panda first. If you watch pro games you will notice humans have adapted to these heroes. Instead of creeping AM to lvl 3, they harass elf and won’t let panda/pl to lvl 3… because these heroes have no control and are weak early.
Some of your suggestions are “cheese” like warden/pitlord staff of tel. harass… and only work if human doesn’t know what to do.
In case you are human main, always go alchemist 2nd hero against warden.

On that MG’s + archers combo, it’s laughable really… again, if you are human, i suggest you go MK clap and if really needed respec Water el. to blizzard, and that’s it.

NE have no answer to human powerball right now, unless you outplay your opponent and keep snowballing through game

20

PL isn’t weak early.
Staff harass isn’t cheese either when it’s something that works and can give you time to tech.
Cleave already had one of the highest DPS with cleave before buff, with the main issue being PL just being big and clunky.
Now it’s just bonkers, with 250 aoe, penetrates armor and has 30/60/90% splash.
Keep in mind every aoe spell except for clap (250/300/350) has 200 aoe, the one spell everyone is whining about.
If the victim has acid bomb buff then the secondary aoe damage is even bigger.
So PL has decent level 1-2. 3 is where is gets broke.