What is wrong with undead?

Competitive Multiplayer
41

What buffs? Ghouls are still walking exp tomes even on blight, with vampiric aura and unholy aura.

When blizzard tried the last necromancer rework, they revealed that they imagine Ghouls are supposed to be used together with Necromancers, or more specifically Unholy frenzy. That was obviously a foolish assumption. Ghouls with their 340 HP are not even worth to cast frost armor, frenzy or anti-magic shield on. Coil level 2 is already missing a ton of value if you decide to use it on Ghouls because you will never get the full 400 heal. And of course Ghouls don’t live long enough to benefit from vampiric aura either.

In the end the Necromancer rework was scrapped. The sacrificial dagger was changed from a “sacrifice a unit and get heal-scroll effect with burst heal on your entire army” to a tiny regeneration over time effect. And Ghouls are still suffering from insane powercreep to all the other units and heroes.

1 Like
42

I ment all the buffs that undeads have, curse, unholy frenzy, too a degree cripple and especially AMS.

Thats why they are generally weaker, because of the potential buffs.

43

Same could be said for each race, why arent grunts footman and archers weaker when they all have access to buffs and debuffs?

See the problem with your logic?

44

If you would have read my first post, where I already wrote that undead
has by far the most direct buffs of all races, and that, in my opinion, is one of the reasons, why ghouls and aboms cannot be buffed in there raw stats,
then you wouldnt prolly come up if your critique.

45

i did read that when i first read the thread but i still would say the same thing regardless because your logic is flawed.

I can quote your post then change every undead buff you stated to orc human or elf and that is the point of my last post. The logic you are using to justify against ghouls being buff has a flaw.

If you dont understand why this is flaw, thats on you and thats why nothing ever gets changed for the better.

2 Likes
46

No, you cant use that logic to all the other races, because they do not have
all these kind of direct buffs for units, but lets count, if you still think, you find “a flaw.”

Orc: Endurance Aura, lightning shield, bloodlust, spirit link, kodo aura and healing wards,
thats six in total, lets be fair and count in the barely ever used stasis trap, so its seven.

Nightelve: Fearie fire, (cyclone is a disable, not a debuff), rejuvination, roar, trueshot (doesnt help everything) and thorns aura, thats five in total.

Human: Inner fire, priest healing, slow and devotion and brilliance aura, invisibility doesnt count because the unit is basically out of the fight with it, so thats five in total, not to mention that brilliance aura doesnt work on all of them, so it could very much be four.

Undeads, now lets say what they have:
Unholy and Vampiric aura, frost armor, curse, AMS, cripple, unholy frenzy, orb of corruption as damage buff for all units that are attacking the same unit.

Thats is eight in total, more than all the other races have, and I have not even taken statues healing and mana regeneration in the consideration, also not freezing breath from frost wyrms, also not howl of terror from the pitlord, also not ghoul frenzy, cannibalism and disease cloud, that would be about another seven points that directly help in the fights as buff or debuff, so fifteen in total, no other race comes even close to this. (I also didnt mentioned that they are able to steal units for even more buffs) and that is part of the reasons, why undead units cannot be buffed in there raw stats like HP.

The developers even said, months ago, that they cannot buff ghouls in terms of HP because how they interact with other units, so stop using the dunning/kruger effect.

47

  1. your retort is stupid.

  2. You forgot lightning orb, which slows down units allowing orc units to deal more damage to fleeing units, you forgot pillage which allows orcs to gain resources over the opponent and I dont even know how the hell you left out SPEED SCROLL. You forgot slow poison which slows unit movement speed. You forgot ultravision which give elfs a clear tactical advantage at night, you forgot shadowmeld which allows them to hide and avoid dying or ambush. How did you forget POLYMORPH?

  3. Pitlord is a TAVERN HERO any one can get him, you really are grasping at straws here.

  4. I never mentioned buffing their hp or what buffs to give.

Honestly if you are going to argue get something right, or like anything at least.

2 Likes
48

Calling something or someone “stupid” in a discussion shows, that you get out of argument and has the goal to make someone insecure, a poor rhetoric tool, in my opion.

And now what ?

Pitlord is mostly used and hast the most value with undead, that is clear and obvious. Polymorph (as Cyclone) is a disable, not a debuff and is also barely ever get used, because it is so mana inefficiente.
Pillage doesnt help in a direct head to head fight, it opens strategic options but doesnt help head to head.
Speedscroll is mostly used and is most effective when running away.
Ultravision doesnt give a tactical advantage but a positional (know the difference) It helps before the actual fight starts but not IN it.
And if you count it shadowmeld and slowing poison, I can also count in web, burrow, freezing breath, both statues touches and so on, favours me even more.
I was speaking of (magical) buffs and debuffs, not upgrades, that are helping in the actual fight.

Sure, that was my and basilisks point and mainly what this thread was all about, how could I ?

I’m still right and undead units wont get buffed, that was the point, you can see that in the game how it is now and in the developers notes.

Same as point 1 on the top and Instead of saying someone is wrong, you could also stop wasting your time and find your own argumentations, why this and that, should be buffed or nerfed. You are fightning against a windmill here, I mean, even you find something “illogical” or whatever you think is incorrect, the developers are still not on the road to buff undeads lol.

50

burrow* buffs the HPs regeneration.

51

thats your retort to that whooping i just gave you? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

BEGONE

52

And now what after everything you wrote ?

I’am still right, undead has the most (magical) buffs and debuffs undead still wont get buffed, due to my points and there overall winratio in the ladder, so whats the point fighting here ? lol

Its just all about the ego right now, nothing more. ^^

53

I believe that listing the spells of each race does not achieve the purpose of the debate, as not all spells can be combined synergistically. Even with all these buffs mentioned in the undeads, the only ones that are really used are the statues and destroyers combined with the aura of the DK.
It is not possible to make a combination of all BUFFS of the undeads, as the technology tree and the economy do not allow it. Therefore, it is not appropriate to discuss all the buffs of each race.
The other races are actually better than the undeads, as they can combine the BUFFS, like, for example: orcs. They can use networks of riders, aura TC, stum TC, rexxar, orb and purge shamans all in one strategy. Such practice is not allowed in undeads, as it does not become a synergistic relationship.
This is the point that should be taken into account in the debate.

54

Sure, and then you see an undead with an expansion, like from nightend, syde and xlord, building fiends, necromancers and banshees. banshees that posseess kodos and casters for even more buffs and a realitycheck.

55

I don’t think you play that game. You are basing the entire balance system on the basis of whether or not to achieve an expansion.
Undoubtedly, you don’t play or have never played Undead. Even with the expansion, there are many effective ways to break the economy of undeads, in addition, of course, that when you expand there is the natural weakness that all races have.
Nobody wants the undeads to get better, we just want more balance that doesn’t exist at the moment.
In the latest versions, the races had huge BUFFS and the undeads did not follow and an example of this is Thunder Clap that rips the Gouls with no chance of counterattack.
This type of imbalance forces undeads to play only with a DK + Fiends + Statues + destroyers strategy

2 Likes
56

Well put. This Monochrome guy keeps posting a list of magic buffs and wants to simply ignore that these exist for other races aswell.

HU has a strong lategame army with Inner Fire. Inner Fire+ Rifles is an extremly scary comp, especially when backed up with a Paladin and Armor aura. Its essentially a moving fortress. What it lacks in maneuverability it makes up in effective HP thanks to crazy armor and sustainability from Priests.

Orc has Shamans and Lightning Shield which tears through squishy caster backlines or Archers. Bloodlust is being used aswell if Orc is able to go T3 vs Elf.

And now this guy wants to tell us that Ghouls are suddenly good units if you put unholy frenzy, anti-magic shield or frost armor ontop? Apparently he is so smart yet no one has ever had success with this. It has always been magic abilities on units which are already performing well. Ghouls aren’t even doing well with vampiric aura + unholy aura because they simply die to any level 3 hero with spells, summons or ranged focus fire.

Blizzard mentioned in the past that the Ghouls would do well because of the Necromancer rework. They didn’t change Ghouls because they thought that Ghouls would fight against Crippled units. But they failed to realize that a unit with bad stats doesn’t suddenly become a good unit if you add some small magic buffs. Every time you see strategies which use magic buffs, you simply enhance already potent units or heroes: Rifles, Taurens, the Pitlord with Bloodlust or Unholy Frenzy, or simply Grunts with Endurance Aura and lightning shield.

In the end the Necromancer rework was scrapped. The PTR gave us no new information besides giving UD an overpowered heal scroll (which the PTR dagger was) makes UD OP. Who would have guessed that? So Blizzard added a garbage version of the dagger. Ghouls are still as bad as ever. Necromancer are back to pre-rework and both units are still bad.

57

What kind of argumentation or killerphrase is that ?
“You have never played the game, so my conclusion is, that everything you said, is wrong”
When I just named high level players that are unterpinning my point, should I send you replays or VODs with timestamp, maybe from 120 aswell, that is winninig with mass ghouls, even against Fly ?

58

And you keep repeating your +40 HP +2 armor four armor for buff for ghouls.
If its a tier 3 upgrade, okay, maybe it can be fine but prolly not.
If its just a buf on default, that it will probably cause more problems then it solves.
Nightelves have already issues with semi-all in ghouls, so your idea would certainly turn the favour against them, but whats even more of a problem, is the human vs undead matchup, which favors undead by an incredible 58%, iirc.
So even if the “buff and spells” argument isnt a thing, I think, the developers are more up to fixing the catastrophic HU vs UD matchup, rather than buffing anything on the undeads side, but well, I could be wrong … but, I’am prolly not.

59

It is the kind of argument that is true. You have listed all BUFFS of the Undeads, but any player who plays with the race knows that it is impossible to create a synergistic relationship with them.
You mention some victories of players with a certain strategy, however that does not necessarily make it good.
As I said earlier, you don’t play undead.
Without a doubt, you are just another player who wants to win games that you don’t deserve, due to an imbalance in the game.

2 Likes
60

At no time did I mention the changes that should be made to improve the living dead. Well, I don’t believe I have the capacity for that. I agreed with some players to say that the race is broken, as anyone can dominate the undeads at the beginning of the game and their army is not the best at the end. So I think there is an imbalance. Stop interpreting things that are not said.

61

You seem to get emotional and triggered, and also you sound like a
conspiracy theories guy with your “without a doubt” and ignoreing the facts and real games that have been won.
You dont know me, you dont know what I play or not, so stop intepretating your
conspiracy theories into me lol.