I hear often that they are the worst race, then go online and hear that its strongest race for Pro’s.
Like what is going on?
Personally I know that ghouls are really good for fast expand and utility early game, but they start dropping off near tier 2 or when enemy MK/TC/KOTG reaches lvl 3.
I also very much don’t like the turn rate and slow movement of frost wyrms and abominations (worst tier 3 unit in game), I think both of these units need atleast turn rate buffs and small collision size reduction.
Undead also has nice heros but I think DK Aura needs to be nerfed (buff unit movespeed) so that other hero comps and strats can emerge.
Finally I think that gargoyles are pretty bad due to their AI bug that makes them target land units, (they get wiped by other air units) because of this.
Yes this is correct, but its not strictly those heroes its just ghouls are trash vs any form of aoe because of their low hp. That is why fiends are heavy used they can survive more frequently against aoe and have synergy with nuking from UD heroes.
You are not alone here, these units are god awful when trying to micro them to run back. They should have the same turn rate as all other Tier 3 heavy units.
I will disagree here. Lets say you nerf the aura and do nothing else to undead. People will still pick dk because mobility is the strength of the race. Other strats wont emerge simply by nerfing another.
This has been a very frustrating issue specially in FFA where the games usually turn into mass air fights.
The whole undead race has big problem in their tech tree and units being weaker in general to similar units of other races. Certain races are supposed to have better units in specific spots like Humans have casters, elf has air, orc has melee, what does undead have? Off the top of my head I cant think of a single unit that is considered to be undeads best unit in any category. I mean hero nuke is all they have but then again thats not a real category.
But this accomplishes nothing. If you nerf the aura speed then give units a speed buff your back to square one.
Also its not a good idea to give buffs and nerfs at the same time to different spots of the race. Its best to to do one or the other and gauge if this effects the race for the better or worse in terms of game balance. Pretty much a controlled environment to collect data accurately.
You can’t nerf DK dude. Only hero Ud have to be competitive. A T2 ghoul hitpoint increase option would be dope and ultimately be better than a frenzy upgrade at t2. Ghouls just melt with air or ff, this would offer undead a dread lord caster, melee, perhaps strat.Undead t2 needs more sustain with no dispel or real fighting units. I would be all for buffing/revamping dreadlords hitpoints and strength. Make him a real fighting hero to holdup against orc/DH. But yeah on another note headhunters cost 140 gold and dryads are cheap and super good, is it just me or is undead expensive , especially with lumber
I have always played Undead and have always shared your feelings about undead. I believe that undeads need to be revamped, as they are currently the weakest race. If you lose against undeads it is because the other player is really better than you. However, I would like a change without the race being better than the others. All I want is a real balance between all the races.
I dont think DL needs a buff as it got quite a few in patch 1.30 and CL might need one or a revamp but I would suggest first working on the quality of life improvement s you mentioned such as garg AI, Abom/Wyrm turn rate first since these dont upset the balance. And maybe with these changes you would see more abom or wyrm use, as turn rate is the main reason I dont make these units. If I need melee I just run Necro wagon instead, If I need heavy air I just mass stats and chain absorb into mass destroyers.
Instead of changing the game, change your skill.
Brood War didn’t have a balance patch in more than 20 years. Players just figure out how to play against what they think unbeatable at first glance. A match-up even switched from 45/55 to 55/45 10 years after release, without patch (pvz).
The attitude “it’s imbalanced ! Change the game !” is a way to not improve yourself. Play, become better, and consider that everything that is in the game is fair. Because it’s the game’s rules.
I dont know what your trying to insinuate here, because if you read the thread it is mostly about quality of life changes not buffing the undead with pointless things. And if you are insinuating that we are crying about a race and lacking skills, what about the pros who say the same thing that undead is the weakest race? Are they also lacking skills?
I say that Warcraft players have, in general, a worse attitude to their game than Brood War ones. They always want (and obtain) balance patches instead of adapting. Adapt to the game instead of adapting the game to your wants, that’s all.
There is no “insinuations”, there is a clear point.
Pro or not pro it’s the same : there is more whines in warcraft than broodwar. Certainly because warcraft pros know that lobby pays (if you cry enough, there will be a balance patch for your race, or a debuff for others), where in broodwar, you can cry all you want, you will never have a patch.
It is better to think that there will never be a patch and to ask yourself how to better your play in the context of this game, right now. Whatever your level is (as the sky is the limit in a RTS).
Adapt? You may just be going crazy or really don’t know anything about the game. Undeads have no adaptation at all. All undead strategies are based on DK, Lich, Fiends, Statues and Destroyers and not because they are better, but because there is no other way to continue with the game. The other strategies with Dreadlord are not effective in the medium or long game.
Exactly I love how people “think” DL strats are viable.
They can only be run cookie cutter, and are easily counterable by any high skill player.
DK is the only hero that Undead opens with 95% of the time.
Undead units actually need buffs:
Ghoul need an HP or MAGIC resistance upgrade.
Frost wyrm weaker but faster building time, less cost, faster building construction
DK aura nerf, undead unit base movespeed increase
Undead Quality of Life Changes:
Gargoyle need that AI fix (ASAP)
Abom turn rate and collison size reduction (small buff) so less clunk
Game Quality of Life Changes
All catapults in game get small movespeed (+10) and small turn rate buff.
No doubt I think these measures improve the race, but you have to be careful, because the goal is not to be better, but to have balance.
Of all the broken things in the undeads, what I find most frustrating is the weakness against air units. To win against undead just do air units, when I ask the other players how to proceed with such strategies, they say - Currently these strategies have worked well against Undeads. I think the WEB should decrease the cooldonw to 7 seconds and decrease the cost which is exorbitantly expensive and time-consuming for training.
I am very suspicious of opinions saying, in a RTS, “there is no adaptation possible, we’ve found the optimal way of playing”. It often means lack of imagination.
Everybody said protoss couldn’t adapt and corsair was garbage in pvz.
Everybody said mech was garbage in tvz.
2 parts of metagame now. No change needed.
Reevaluate your beliefs. Experiment. Reflect on the game. I give no solution, but I am sure the mindset “nothing is possible” is a bad one in RTS.
This isnt Starcraft, this game revolves around hero units, items and micro vs macro. Stop bringing up starcraft as your example it is nowhere near the same thing as it only shares a genre type and nothing else.
RTS is RTS.
You need to compare to other RTS because there was less R&D in War3 than in other RTS, as the scene was tinier.
I think War3 is the least researched/figured out BlizzRTS and will provide meta changes in the future. It’s a more positive attitude to see it evolve naturally than to ask for patches.